Page 5 of 13 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 LastLast
Results 61 to 75 of 192

Thread: Miss California

  1. #61
    Custom Title antmanb's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    UK - Manchester
    Posts
    4,913
    Quote Originally Posted by evangeline View Post
    I agree with you to an extent--often, I found that people often invoke PC as the last line of argument, when they don't know to adequately respond to your point.

    But is PC that pervasive in everyday media, though? The example of scientists afraid to publish certain types of studies about gender and race--those still do get published and discussed. For example, I remember reading a news article recently discussing a study in which two scientists concluded that Jews were the most intelligent people. However, studies like these do get criticized, not necessarily on the grounds that they are un-PC, but because they are often scientifically unsound.

    I think a tempered form of PC has some use in everyday life--after all, it can shut the real bigots and racists up. Extreme PC, though (as Ray Bradbury would argue) should definitely be frowned upon--but then again, extremism in the majority of things in life is not exactly desirable.
    I'm sure there are "proper" studies into this but i certainly know a lot of people that think people being "PC" is just a cover up for people. It's a learned behaviour about what it's acceptable to say but doesn't necessairyl help to change people's thinking. Black friends I have say they preferred it better before people were PC that way they had advanced warning as to who the racists were, now you have to scratch a little deeper to find out

  2. #62
    L'art pour l'art Medusa's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Posts
    2,752
    Quote Originally Posted by Tonichelle View Post
    and that is what I was referring to. PC has become so extreme that you just don't know what you're allowed to say before you get labelled a bigot, or a racist, etc...
    But PC also depends on the country, doesn't it? For example, do you remember this photo ? Everybody got worked up about it. And I get that it is silly and childish and I personally don't think it's funny at all. But I still don't get what is racist about it. I simply don't.

    The team was imitating a physical trait of Asian people. Why is that racist? Isn't then every Asian / Black person colouring their hair red or blonde also racist? Blonde (and red) hair is a physical trait of caucasian people, especially of people with roots in Eastern Europe, Northern Europe and Middle Europe. So maybe the Asians / Blacks colouring their hair are mocking the strange hair colours of Northern caucasians? Same goes for coloured contact lenses, maybe people just want to mock people with non-brown / black eyes.

  3. #63
    Custom Title antmanb's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    UK - Manchester
    Posts
    4,913
    Quote Originally Posted by Medusa View Post
    The team was imitating a physical trait of Asian people. Why is that racist?
    I didn't even understand what they were doing until you explained it. I suppose in order to understand anything at all about the situation you'd have to have the cnotext. Why did they do it? What was there intent? When did they do it etc etc.

    If they were "mocking" any particular person or team then i find it hard to see how it would not be racist.

    Ant

  4. #64
    L'art pour l'art Medusa's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Posts
    2,752
    Quote Originally Posted by antmanb View Post
    I didn't even understand what they were doing until you explained it. I suppose in order to understand anything at all about the situation you'd have to have the cnotext. Why did they do it? What was there intent? When did they do it etc etc.

    If they were "mocking" any particular person or team then i find it hard to see how it would not be racist.
    It was, as far as I remember, a photo they did during the preparation for the Olympics in Peking.

  5. #65
    Wicked Yankee Girl dorispulaski's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    Staring at the ocean and smiling.
    Posts
    14,281
    I grew up in the old non-PC days, and I'll take PC every time.

    As a woman married to a guy with a Polish surname, who had an Italian mother in law, I have heard every disgusting ethnic joke ever. Not to mention the endless jokes on the TV about women with the punchlines:

    Aren't women so stupid and incompetent!

    Ethnic punch lines were:

    1. Ethnic group is stupid
    2. Ethnic group is unclean
    3. Ethnic group eats excrement or other inedible items
    4. Ethnic group is lazy
    5. Ethnic group A is even stupider than ethnic group B
    6. Ethnic group is criminal by nature

    Oh such funny jokes ...and if you didn't laugh along with the crowd you were condemned a second time around for not having a sense of humor, so you tried to smile at least, while really wishing the 'humorist' would have some embarassing thing happen to him as soon as possible.

    When I see someone complaining about political correctness, I tend to assume that this is a person who is miffed that it is no longer socially acceptable to dump their racist and bigoted filth on the races and ethnic groups and gender they despise. (For example, defending their 'right' to use the n word.)

    That may be wrong..after all, like the strange picture above, someone may just truly not know what they did or said was insulting. I recall reading a conversation between two people who agreed that the phrase "you people" was racist and then disagreeing as to whether "you guys" was also racist. I had no clue there was a problem with either. OTOH, I wasn't angry about it-I was glad to be given the hint, because I have no desire to insult anyone, particularly by accident.

  6. #66
    Banned
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Posts
    452
    Quote Originally Posted by dorispulaski View Post
    I grew up in the old non-PC days, and I'll take PC every time.

    As a woman married to a guy with a Polish surname, who had an Italian mother in law, I have heard every disgusting ethnic joke ever. Not to mention the endless jokes on the TV about women with the punchlines:

    Aren't women so stupid and incompetent!
    What world are you living in? In the world I live in, what you just said happens 24/7 right now, except it's the MEN who are called stupid and incompetent, verbally abused, mocked and humiliated on a daily basis in all forms of media entertainment.

    THAT'S NOT AN IMPROVEMENT.

  7. #67
    Wicked Yankee Girl dorispulaski's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    Staring at the ocean and smiling.
    Posts
    14,281
    Apparently not the same one you are.

    The world I was describing was the old un PC days of the 1950's and the early 1960's, if you look at the post.

    What I was saying, and apparently didn't make clear, was that I prefer today to the 1950's I grew up in.

    But I take it then I have been getting it wrong, old woman that I am, and all those blonde jokes we hear these days are about men???

    http://www.zelo.com/blonde/



    I don't think today is perfect, just better. But I haven't heard a raft of jokes about men.

    Blondes, old people, fat people and rednecks seem to be the targets of the 2000's to me...but I am old (62) and not with the program particularly. I tend to watch West Wing reruns, House, Law and Order, John Stewart & Steven Colbert, Project Runway and Deadliest Catch. I didn't see a raft of men are stupid jokes. But then if I were watching a program that was making that sort of jokes, I'd change the channel, because I don't enjoy jokes with predictable punchlines.

    But if you feel the continuous butt of all the jokes, I'm sorry to hear it, because it is a very unhappy state. It's how I felt in the 1950's and 1960's. I was angry about it much of the time back then, from about age 6 on.
    Last edited by dorispulaski; 05-22-2009 at 06:22 PM.

  8. #68
    Banned
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Posts
    452
    Watch any given night of network television, and figure it out. Part of it is ultra-feminist man-hating. The rest of it is because political correctness has tied the writers hands so much, that the only people left they can use as the constant butt of jokes are white men.

  9. #69
    Wicked Yankee Girl dorispulaski's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    Staring at the ocean and smiling.
    Posts
    14,281
    Granted, I'm usually in bed by 11 or 12, so I don't see this stuff. And if it makes you that angry, it can't be all that funny. If I were you, I'd change the channel. There's got to be something else on. May I recommend John Stewart & Steven Colbert for humor Or the infomercials for Ron Popeil's latest gadget. I'd stop short of watching the guy talking about colonic cleansing though. (I do wake up in the middle of the night occasionally).

    BTW, there are few people that will admit to being feminists any more. That's a term from the 1970's & 1960's. It's odd to hear a youngster like you using it. I would call myself a feminist, because I've been one a long while. To me, the term means that I am a person too, just like you are, neither better nor worse intrinsically. Back in the day, I was not a person, according to both society & my family. If you ever want to know exactly what it was like in the 1960's from a woman's perspective, a very interesting book is The Girl I Left Behind by Judith Nies. Judith worked for a group of 10 liberal Congressmen during that time frame, who among other things, thought that because she was a woman that they didn't need to cough up her salary for weeks at a time. The world is different & better now.

    http://www.amazon.com/Girl-Left-Behi...3039255&sr=8-1

    Anyway, if you are just aching to hear women insulted instead, you can OD on blonde jokes or old lady jokes. There are plenty of both out there right now. Heck, tune in to Larry the Cable Guy for that matter.

  10. #70
    Rooting for the divas with Kwanford Spun Silver's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    New Jersey
    Posts
    4,880
    Quote Originally Posted by dorispulaski View Post
    When I see someone complaining about political correctness, I tend to assume that this is a person who is miffed that it is no longer socially acceptable to dump their racist and bigoted filth on the races and ethnic groups and gender they despise. (For example, defending their 'right' to use the n word.)
    Wow, this seems one-sided. I complain (usually to myself, lol) about PC'ness but it's certainly not in order to legitimize racism. I see major problems in academia, which is supposedly the fountainhead of free speech but in fact is dominated by leftists who often don't even bother to hide their biases - the idea of objectivity is considered elitist and "totalitarian." Whole areas of study are virtually prohibited because they're not PC, as when Lawrence Summers at Harvard raised the question whether women might be genetically less endowed with scientific minds than men since there are so many fewer women scientists. I'm not defending his idea, but instead of arguing him on the facts or undertaking investigations of the question, Harvard leftists hounded him out of office because what he said was simply unsayable - it violated PC feminist orthodoxy according to which culture is responsible for sexual differences. On principle I object to such a suppression of inquiry. I see an obsession with names (of groups of people) that after a while seems pretty trivial as well as a cheap way of marking off "good" people (who use the right terminology) from "bad" ones (who don't). If you call young girls "young girls" or African-Americans "black" or Latinos "Hispanic" or welfare "welfare" (as opposed to "public assistance" or "income support") expect some group to label you as racist or classist or sexist - extremely serious charges that people throw around like dog toys.

    That may be wrong..after all, like the strange picture above, someone may just truly not know what they did or said was insulting. I recall reading a conversation between two people who agreed that the phrase "you people" was racist and then disagreeing as to whether "you guys" was also racist. I had no clue there was a problem with either.
    Yeah, that's what I'm talkin' about. "You people" (Ross Perot at the NAACP dinner in 1992) made the front page of the NY Times and probably every other major media. Now that's ridiculous. I mean, the media jump on every story, but the upshot of this one is that "you people" has joined the PC lexicon of unacceptable terms. There's a logical connection between this kind of "community policing" to little Pavlik Morozov (the Soviet child who denounced his parents to the government and was ever after held up as the model of a good citizen). We're forgetting our common humanity (another idea that's almost unspeakable in today's academy) and we're using cheap markers of right and wrong instead of searching for truth. The PC obsession, however noble its original intent, is capable of becoming as nasty and inhuman as the evils it sets out to denounce.
    Last edited by Spun Silver; 05-22-2009 at 10:19 PM.

  11. #71
    Forum translator Ptichka's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    Boston, MA
    Posts
    4,430
    Doris, I think the term "feminist" has enjoyed a resurgence over the last decades. We, the feminists of 00's, are starkly different from out predecessors. For instance, one thing I found off putting with original feminists is that they... well... didn't want to be very woman-like. I love my make-up and my jewelry and my high heels, and I enjoy getting men's attention (and yes, I do enjoy getting the little things I can get as an attractive woman). For the 70's feminists, such attitude was anathema; yet it fits right in with the spirit of today's feminism. Also, the feminists of yesteryear, in their attempts to achieve equality with men, often forewent things that are unique to women. For example, formula was supposed to bring equality to parenthood; today's feminists, by contrast, fight for a woman's right to breastfeed wherever and whenever.

    I believe that we still have much to fight for, though today's fight is cultural rather than political, and is therefore that much more difficult. It's one thing to force politicians to sign a law; a totally different thing to make people think differently. Let me give you an example - a good friend of mine has a 12-year-old sister. The girl is very bright; she has attended several Math and Science Olympiads (winning one or two) and is currently taking math at the local high school. While she may not be in love with math, she does like it, meaning she doesn't just do it to please her parents. Now, though, there is a problem. Boys don't like girls who are in that advanced math program. In fact, she is the only girl there! Boys who are in it are not all that popular either, but they're not seen as complete social losers. Now, this girl is not "boy crazy", she doesn't even want a boyfriend necessarily, but she doesn't want to be a social pariah. Changing the society in a way that turns those attitudes around is what I see as our next huge challenge. (Not that I do too much but I did help several times with the BU program that talks to girls from all high schools, from the poorest to the most affluent, about the careers in science, technology, and medicine, and about how cool they are.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Spun Silver View Post
    I see major problems in academia, which is supposedly the fountainhead of free speech but in fact is dominated by leftists who often don't even bother to hide their biases - the idea of objectivity is considered elitist and "totalitarian." Whole areas of study are virtually prohibited because they're not PC, as when Lawrence Summers at Harvard raised the question whether women might be genetically less endowed with scientific minds than men since there are so many fewer women scientists.
    As I've said in my post on PCness, I do separate it into two parts - one about how you say things (which I see as positive) and the other about what you say (which I see as evil). A friend who's doing a psychology PhD at McGill often complains about professors curbing research on gender differences, which are clearly very important in psychology of all disciplines.

    BTW, from what I've heard from Harvard Economics insiders, there was a long standing desire to push out Summers and it had nothing to do with any of his political believes; it just had to do with the politics within the international Economics academic community, and certain decisions he made. When the row over his statements started, it was just a convenient time to push him out.
    Last edited by Ptichka; 05-22-2009 at 10:28 PM.

  12. #72
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    2,178
    Quote Originally Posted by Particle Man View Post
    What world are you living in? In the world I live in, what you just said happens 24/7 right now, except it's the MEN who are called stupid and incompetent, verbally abused, mocked and humiliated on a daily basis in all forms of media entertainment.

    THAT'S NOT AN IMPROVEMENT.
    I find it extremely ironic that you view the world this way, when we live in a world where political and corporate power is mostly held by men, where the average man out-earns the average woman, where academia is dominated by men, where women in some countries are not even permitted to drive....do I have to continue?

    As for "ultra-feminist man-hating" jokes on television, I don't know what you watch, but I don't think it's mainstream television. Hipsters of both genders seem to be the most fashionable targets du jour anyways, along with the types of people dorispulaski mentioned.

    Re: dorispulaski: I am definitely a youngster, and would call myself a feminist. However, I found that people my age often hesistate before calling themselves feminists because they don't wish to be labelled as ultra-feminist man-haters by some, despite the straw man implications of that label. Which is sad, actually, for there is nothing to be ashamed of in striving for gender equality.

    By the way, your descriptions of how life was in the 1950s-60s are very interesting indeed.

  13. #73
    and... World Peace! Tonichelle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Kenai, AK
    Posts
    18,646
    *shrugs* I'm a young female american woman... I don't see or feel the discrimination, and I know enough blondes to get where the jokes came from (I work with this blonde woman that I swear her IQ is below bedrock. She can't answer the PHONE without five pages of notes... it's just insane... and then she blames EVERYONE around her saying we never told her -I have a freaking cheat sheet TAPED TO MY DESK so that when people are relieving me for my breaks or the end of the day they can remember what they are supposed to do!) I don't agree with using stereotypes to sum a person up before meeting them, but unfortunately (or fortunately in some cases) some people DO fit that role.

    A lot of women complain about being thought of as dumb or not as bright as guys, but we have no problem using that "dumb as a fox" trick when we know it'll work in our favor. Tell me, how are we HELPING the "cause" (and do we even need that cause, I'm not convinced that we do.)

    I've had enough female profs in a liberal arts college to know their idea of womanhood is so beyond the opposite of what I want... they do fit the man-hater stereotype and I want no part of that.

    My mom's best friend is black. She calls a spade a spade and feels others should to. She doesn't want to be discriminated against, but she prefers Black to any other politically correct term and she can't stand that there's a double standard... she can't stand the people in her own family who use the 'n' word and then start screaming racism the minute it comes out of someone's mouth that ISN'T black...

    that's my problem with PCness in this country. It's hypocritical and it doesn't work... it snares those that can't keep up (aka me, because honestly I don't have the time to know which phrase and which is in... I didn't realize "black" was "in" again until this last year)... it's frustrating...

  14. #74
    Rooting for the divas with Kwanford Spun Silver's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    New Jersey
    Posts
    4,880
    (OT: Toni, what is your new avatar? One of your photos? Very nice in a mysterious way.)

  15. #75
    and... World Peace! Tonichelle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Kenai, AK
    Posts
    18,646
    it's Kurt Browning from one of the opening segments from an NBC broadcast of one of the Gotta Skates...

Page 5 of 13 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •