Miss California

[Ptichka]

There is a wonderful Russian poem by Alexander Kushner (made into a famous song by Nikitin - http://stranamp3.com/tracks/486718/1...vybirayut.html) – I’ll try to translate it loosely (I won’t even bother with rhyming, I’ll just get the gist of it):

One doesn’t choose his time,
One just lives and dies in it.
There’s nothing more banal
Than pleading and complaining,
As if one can exchange one for the other
As if it were a market.

Any century is the “iron” one.
But the garden is beautiful,
The cloud is shining; at five
I was supposed to die of scarlet fever.
Live in the innocent century,
That knows no hardship!

You want to happy.
Would you rather live under Ivan the Terrible?
Do you dream of Florentine
Plague or leprosy?
You want to ride first class,
Not in dark in ship’s hold?

Any century is the “iron” one.
But the garden is beautiful,
The cloud is shining; I’ll hug
My century and my fate.
Time is a test.
Don’t envy anyone.

The hug is right.
Time is the skin, not the dress.
It’s imprint is deep.
If you’re careful,
You can take print it’s signs and folds
From us as fingerprints.

[Medusa]

That is beautiful.

[dorispulaski]

It is indeed beautiful!

But at my age, I know why your elders hark back to the past as being better. It's always better when all of your parts worked correctly, when you were young and in love before disillusionment, when everything that was beautiful you had newly discovered for the first time, instead of nodding your head, and saying, yes, it's still beautiful, but it was better then.

However, even with that, the 1950's still were dreadful, and I still remember them that way. OTOH, I can get quite nostalgically happy thinking about the 1970's: bad clothes, disco, Nixon, the gas crisis and all.

[Particle Man]

Well it "worked" if by "working" you mean that it was all fine and dandy while everyone accepted that the women were simply chattles being bought and sold by men. Men who, by virtue of the sale and purchase contract they'd entered into could do whatever they wanted with that chattle including physically and sexually abuse it.

Ant

Yawn. What worked was when kids had a mother and a father. Never said it was perfect. So instead of working on perfecting it, you choose to demonize the past, and ignore the failings of the present. I see the human race fundamentally as a bunch of children. The noble ideals of Christianity like self-sacrifice, humility and believing in something more important than just your own immediate happiness -- those are the values which used to be instilled in said children. Now we're just spoiled and worthless, we don't understand why "me me me" won't work, we think everyone deserves everything even when it is incongruous. Our society is completely selfish, and the courts have granted women the power to abuse that selfishness and destroy families. Yep, your modern values are so freaking noble. I'm just in awe.

[evangeline]

The noble ideals of Christianity like self-sacrifice, humility and believing in something more important than just your own immediate happiness -- those are the values which used to be instilled in said children. Now we're just spoiled and worthless, we don't understand why "me me me" won't work, we think everyone deserves everything even when it is incongruous.

Really? Is that how you really think everyone is right now? I don't think that's true for everyone. I admit, some people of my generation are ambitious, they want to achieve, to strive--but I see that in a more positive light. That today, everyone--i.e. women, blacks, etc, and not just white, middle/upper-class men--can have the chance to achieve their dreams. That everyone has the opportunity now to become something other than the narrow societal roles of the past. Is that really a bad thing: that everyone can have their own goals, dreams and ambitions, and now have the chance to pursue them? I would think that we as a society are better for it.

As a student, I must say that while there are spoiled, hyper-ambitious types who believe that they are entitled to riches and fame, there are also many people my age who show the qualities of self-sacrifice, humility and believing in something more important than just their immediate happiness--whether by spending long hours volunteering at a homeless shelter, or organizing fundraisers to sponsor a child overseas, or donating hours of their time to conduct volunteer research for an entirely student-run research group. These values aren't dead right now. It's that for every generation, there are selfish people, and there are good people. You may only see the selfish people, but that doesn't mean that everyone is like that.

Personally, I think you're demonizing the present and ignoring the failings of the past.

[Tonichelle]

Personally I don't think this world is better or worse... all of the same themes just keep repeating (the good and the bad)... going with my Christian-ese - we live in a "fallen world"... and humans have always been and always will be a selfish lot.

Yes, there are exceptions, but I thinking pointing the fingers at others goes no where.

Would I want to live in a time where I couldn't have my say? No. I'm all for having the right to vote, and the right to make money....however as a woman living in a modern time I get really tired of being told that my stand on abstinence, what my plans are for when/if I get married and have children, and my faith are wrong and hurting the women's cause. I have a coworker that considers me stupid and childish and tells EVERYONE in the office of my unintelligence.

Now, you all might also think me stupid, but it seems a little wrong that people screaming for women's rights to be free thinking and do as they please are telling me as a woman what to do and say and think. I am not pushing my view on this coworker. She ASKED. There is a difference. You ASK then I'm not pushing it on you, I'm ANSWERING your question. Belittling me after getting the answer is YOU pushing your views on ME.

Do I think the world would be better if everyone followed the Christian set of values - naturally yes. And yes I vote based on my faith just as every other person votes based on their set of beliefs. I'm not pushing my view that way anymore than anyone else is pushing theirs onto me.

[Ptichka]

Toni, I personally don't mind coworkers explaining their believes to me - as long as they respect certain lines. For example, I used to work with this very observant* Christian kid David. I was fascinated with his world view and encouraged him to express it freely. However, when at one point he started trying to convince me that Christianity was so much better than Judaism - I felt uncomfortable with it. I told him that (gently); since he understood where I was coming from, he never raised that particular issue openly again, and we were able to continue our religious discussions to, I hope, mutual benefit. Had he persisted with his missionary position though, I'd have had to cut it off entirely.

* My rabbi's influence - he doesn't like us to say "religious" about people because you never know what's in their hearts; he prefers us to use the term "observant" - so it has now become a second nature to me.

[Joesitz]

I got a taste of Shintoism when I was touring in Japan, and was surprised that they are, like Native Americans, firm believers in the whole of Nature and not just the humans, and the God who cares just about humans.

[Tonichelle]

Toni, I personally don't mind coworkers explaining their believes to me - as long as they respect certain lines. For example, I used to work with this very observant* Christian kid David. I was fascinated with his world view and encouraged him to express it freely. However, when at one point he started trying to convince me that Christianity was so much better than Judaism - I felt uncomfortable with it. I told him that (gently); since he understood where I was coming from, he never raised that particular issue openly again, and we were able to continue our religious discussions to, I hope, mutual benefit. Had he persisted with his missionary position though, I'd have had to cut it off entirely.

* My rabbi's influence - he doesn't like us to say "religious" about people because you never know what's in their hearts; he prefers us to use the term "observant" - so it has now become a second nature to me.

I hate the term religious, though I use it because I can't think of a better term when explaining/describing things - however I like observant

and I don't preach at work. The issue that's been going on at work is based on the fact that I used to wear what I call a 'promise ring' but can also be called a 'chastity ring'. It's just an outward symbol saying I am waiting until marriage. My coworker was looking online for what she wants her "engagement" ring to be (on company time, which is a huge no-no... but she cares diddly about the job. don't get me started lol) and it reminded me that I needed to have my "promise ring" resized and asked her where I would go to have that done that was affordable in town. She wanted to know about the ring (because "promise" could also mean engagement) and so I told her that it was a "chastity ring" I never once brought up any "religious" belief before she lit into how that was outdated and horrible and blah blah blah. That I was setting womankind back 60 years or something like that.

Didn't know a single piece of jewelry could do that (and really an engagement/wedding band on a woman's hand could mean the same thing. it's an outward sign that you belong to someone else. *gasp!* see, I can make generalizations too!)

[antmanb]

Yawn.

I find it extremely sad that you are bored by the plight of women through the years. Perhaps you should use more of your Christian ideals and you might actually achieve some level of enlightenment?

What worked was when kids had a mother and a father. Never said it was perfect. So instead of working on perfecting it, you choose to demonize the past, and ignore the failings of the present. I see the human race fundamentally as a bunch of children. The noble ideals of Christianity like self-sacrifice, humility and believing in something more important than just your own immediate happiness -- those are the values which used to be instilled in said children. Now we're just spoiled and worthless, we don't understand why "me me me" won't work, we think everyone deserves everything even when it is incongruous. Our society is completely selfish, and the courts have granted women the power to abuse that selfishness and destroy families. Yep, your modern values are so freaking noble. I'm just in awe.

No all you made was a sweeping statement with nothing at all to back it up, you said:

Actually, "traditional marriage" isn't just what yet another arrogant athiest on youtube claims in a bitter one-sided rant about the bible. It IS what has worked for society for thousands of years.

I was merely pointing out that it depends on what you mean by "worked". Clearly it didn't work for many people.

I haven't demonised anything i'm merely stating facts about what people have gone through. Burying your head in the sand and demonizing (to use your own words) the world right now saying everythign shoudl go back to how it was is going to get us absoltuely nowhere.

Identifying issues and practical workable solutions is the only way things are going to get better. As i said before jaded misogyny will get us nowhere fast.

Ant

[Particle Man]

I have a coworker that considers me stupid and childish and tells EVERYONE in the office of my unintelligence.

Now, you all might also think me stupid, but it seems a little wrong that people screaming for women's rights to be free thinking and do as they please are telling me as a woman what to do and say and think. I am not pushing my view on this coworker. She ASKED. There is a difference. You ASK then I'm not pushing it on you, I'm ANSWERING your question. Belittling me after getting the answer is YOU pushing your views on ME.

Bingo. The liberal society is gonna "encourage" you to live every aspect of their predetermined "free and empowered" lifestyle, and if you don't subscribe to all of it, watch out! You only have "free speech" as long as it is speech sanctioned and supported by the liberal media gestapo.

There are many aspects of humanity to blame for this -- in this case, conformity? It reminds me of the constant abuse I get from my male acquaintances because I don't drink, don't seek out cheap sex, don't act like a pig. There's something "wrong" with me because I don't conform to their (low) standards and engage in those activities. :sheesh:

... I really need better friends.

[Tonichelle]

your last point is actually the one I agree with... ie you need better friends...

the guys that I grew up and hang out with don't look at life that way. and I don't believe they're the only ones on teh planet like that. maybe if you befriend those with 'higher moral standards' you'd realize the world isn't out to get you.

[CzarinaAnya]

I find it extremely sad that you are bored by the plight of women through the years. Perhaps you should use more of your Christian ideals and you might actually achieve some level of enlightenment?

Condescension much?

[antmanb]

Condescension much?

...and....?

[icedancingnut31]

I really don't think there should have been such a stir over her comments and views on same sex marriage. I personally think that people should be allowed to believe whatever they want even if others don't agree with them. It is free speech. If she doesn't believe in same sex marriage that is her decision and it is not everybody else's place to get angry about it. People are allowed to have their own opinions