Yeah the man earns the money, and then the woman takes away half in the divorce, because of a court system that sides with women 95% of the time.
Originally Posted by evangeline
Here's the fundamental problem with gender roles in our society -- women have been sold a contradiction. You cannot be both privileged and equal. Pick one!
Doris' argument is like an echo of a bygone time. I understand her points of view but they are decades out of date. I'm sorry she feels that she grew up oppressed, but the world she is describing no longer exists. And by saying "the world" I mean the western civilized world, not backward countries where civil rights are equivalent to the stone age. If you want to go to those countries and change things, go for it. I won't complain. But what happens there is not relevant to the lives of US citizens. US citizens and US women aren't oppressed by it, nor women in Canada, Europe, Australia, Russia or wherever else. It's a complete red herring.
So let's see. I have almost no rights in court when up against a woman, I could be called a rapist or child molestor with zero evidence, and get my name and character destroyed. My role as a father is seen as superfluous, all I am to society is a money machine to be leeched off of. If I have kids and the woman chooses to end the relationship, she gets the kids, house and my money. If I have no kids and the woman ends the relationship she still gets my house and money. But apparently "my unfair right to earn more money" is somehow more important than the fact that the woman takes it all away from me anyway? I have to endure 24/7 humiliation of my gender in popular media, women are allowed to hit men but never the opposite. Male suicides are increasing 5 times faster than female suicide rates. Female victims of spousal abuse have dedicated help centers and attorneys chomping at the bit, male victims of spousal abuse get laughed at. Mens' life expectancy is several years less than womens', yet breast cancer research is the most funded cancer research. And last but not least, women are granted absolute power of life and death. Baby, you're only a "person" if your MOM says you are, otherwise you're a soulless fetus who can be chucked into a dumpster.
You need to open your eyes. Would you like to switch gender roles? You can earn more money, and in exchange I get the power to take it away from you if you ever enter any kind of relationship with me, as well as absolute power over the family, the life and death of unborn children, and I get to humiliate you and hit you and then bat my eyes and play the innocent victim if you retaliate. My health and well-being will be prioritized over yours in medical research, while you can go fight wars to protect me. It must sound like a great deal to you, since you maintain that I am so privileged.
Last edited by Particle Man; 05-23-2009 at 03:37 AM.
Wicked Yankee Girl
Particle Man, It sounds like you're going through a very bad time.
However, I have not seen divorce work that way, either now or in the past. In fact, the woman even being able to get custody is a relatively new thing in the US. It started about 1950 or so.
I watched my brother's divorce, and he got everything. My SIL got almost nothing, not even her piano, and he couldn't even play it. The issue is who has the better lawyer. In lawyers, as in doctors, it pays to get the best one, in spades. It's got little to do with anything else other than the legal skill of the lawyers, and the laws of the particular state. OTOH, my brother gave a large percentage of what he got to his lawyers. Financially, divorce is a lose/lose proposition IMO.
In community property states, the most a wife can receive is 50%, so your 95% figure is either inaccurate, or a sign that the person in question had a really bad lawyer.
I've been a feminist since the early 1970's, and I don't hate men. Heck I've been married to the same one since 1964. I worked in a male-dominated profession (engineering) for my entire working life, so most of my close personal friends are men, too.
Again, to get the perspective of older women, I can't recommend The Girl I Left Behind enough. It is a gentle, humorous, but accurate recounting of her life-and how the broader political movements of the day fit into it.
Ptichka, I'm glad to hear that some women still think of themselves as feminists. My granddaughter is being raised very little differently than I was, sadly. My DIL is a stay at home mom. My granddaughter is supposed to get wound about Disney princesses as role models-(yeah, there is a real future in the princess business although a lot of the Disney princesses have fine personal traits, as a life model they leave something to be desired.) The granddaughter, however, takes after her granny and takes things apart and is fascinated by the stuff you find under rocks, much to her mom's dismay.
Yes, dressing badly was a thing common to feminists of the 1970's. It did have a sensible reason for it, at least in my industry. If you dressed well, people immediately assumed you were a secretary. There was really no other way to avoid getting sent out for coffee or asked to type up other people's work.
I'm sad to hear about the only girl in the advanced math class, and her struggles to be anything but a social pariah. I was the only girl in the advanced math class. It was just the same. I thought things had changed more than that. In that background, it's hard to take the research interests of Larry Summers seriously about the inferiority of women as mathematicians. Quite often gender differences can be approached in research as part of studies of all students. It would be nice to see some work on learning styles of all students in math. The general way in the past that exploring gender differences has worked is that there were complaints that Johnny Can't Read, and it's a problem requiring new pedagogical strategies. The author then suggests strategies. OTOH when the research shows Jane can't do math, the conclusion used to be that Jane is a girl and too stupid to do math. The 'new pedagogical strategies' approach would be preferable to me.
Toni, just because one blonde you know is dumb is hardly a proof that all blondes are dumb. This is a huge disservice to the people of Scandanavia No one said all blondes are smart. I agree that it is hard to keep up with all the things that make people feel insulted--however, I hope you agree that it's worth the effort. It's impossible to communicate effectively with people if you're inadvertently insulting them. And who would want to insult other people? It's a desire that I don't understand, and is one that for me is at the heart of the PC debate.
Last edited by dorispulaski; 05-23-2009 at 07:46 AM.
L'art pour l'art
Rooting for the divas with Kwanford
I like pie.
No, I know having known ONE dumb blonde is not proof enough, but I know ENOUGH blondes to have a good idea of where the stereotype comes from. Being a brunette from 8th grade on (natural change) I have my share of "blonde moments". I can play the dippy girl when I want to (that dumb like a fox thing) it drives my boss crazy but I love it. And he really doesn't care so long as I don't screw up my job. (which seriously is not that hard of a job!)
Originally Posted by dorispulaski
I dunno... I'm a "hick from the sticks" in a lot of ways, Anchorage-ites make fun of those of us on the Peninsula but we give it right back... and EVERYONE has a few things to say about "the Valley" (aka Palmer and a little town called Wasilla... you may have heard of it.) Yes they're based on stereotypes... but stereotypes come from somewhere... not everyone is like that, but it's still fun... and MOST are good humored about it (even Mrs. Palin doesn't take offense... when it's an Alaskan doing it, not some pundit from the otherside of the world - just as most Alaskans are like. We can pick on each other, but don't you start picking on it.)
It's like our saying about Anchorage (that annoys just about everyone I know in this city, but I see the truth in the statement) you have to go outside of the city in any direction and drive about an hour and THEN you're in Alaska... Anchorage is that really quaint little city NEAR Alaska...
yes it's not TRUE. Anchorage IS in Alaska... is the biggest city here and has more than half the state's population within it's borough (county) but the perception by those of us who didn't grow up here don't feel it's very Alaskan. It's skewed in a lot of ways... it's more of a melting pot... but while its numbers may be more DIVERSE it's incredibly segregated. And a lot of that, I feel, is somewhat from the politically correct attitude the city has.
it's hard for me to explain... but it seems the bend over backwards politeness has made it hard to get to know your neighbors because you still have those stereotypes running in your head and you're so afraid to either let them show or offend someone that you never break down that first barrier. I don't know if this is a problem in the big cities of everywhere else, but that's how I feel Anchorage is. You can live in the same house for over five years and not know ANYONE in your neighborhood... and it's not just for YOUR lack of trying... others don't try either...
Little towns, you run into everyone eventually anyway, so you have to learn to deal with it.
Rooting for the divas with Kwanford
I should have known!
Originally Posted by Tonichelle
As a white male in the United States of 2009, yes I am, and so are all the others whether they realize it or not. (Well, other than those "men" who just exist for sexual conquest.) In essence, other than distractions/hobbies like figure skating, I have nothing to live for in this country other than making money, which doesn't greatly interest me by itself. What good is money in an empty life? Cheap sex doesn't interest me. The family is dead, marriage is dead. I was raised to believe in those things, and I live in a country/world where they are extremely hard to achieve. You're right that divorce is "lose/lose" especially for the kids, but most women don't realize it until later in life, or maybe never. They just discard their man like a paper towel and go off looking for a new one. When things get hard - give up! The court will reward you if you are female! Your brother's situation is extremely atypical. And I never said women get 95% of assets, I said 95% of the time women are favored in court.
Originally Posted by dorispulaski
I'm glad that you have been in a stable marriage for a long time. You grew up in a different era. I'm willing to bet that in your marriage, there is something called mutual respect. That you have ideals higher than just looking for the biggest monetary and situational advantage. That even though you rightfully want more than JUST being a wife and mother, you still believe that being a wife and mother is a thing to be honored, instead of a backward notion to be ashamed of, or a tedious chore that gets in the way of your "real life." The "traditional family values" from your era are a shadow of what they were, and continue to fade every day. If your circle of friends is also from your era, you probably don't see it. I don't personally know a single couple my age or younger who has been married any length of time. I've given up even imagining that I could be.
I like pie.
My parents were married in 1981... my dad is 55 this year, mom just turned 63. In my mom's case it's her second marriage. The first dissolved because her exhusband was cheating on her. Not the other way around.
My aunt is in a relationship right now with a man who has done the same thing to his first wife as my mom's ex did to her. Only he didn't have the guts to warn his wife first.
I don't think women are the only ones who can be 'evil' in a relationship, far from it. But there are MANY happily married couples for a LONG time... and they all haven't had the rosey lives. Two of my close friends (couples both in their 20s very early 30s) are weathering through the horrible storm of losing a child (one in childbirth, the other during surgery... both under the age of three). In a lot of cases grief brings out the very worst in a couple, but they're weathering through there by the Grace of God. It's not easy, marriage is not easy.
Most of my 'girlfriends' that are married are either stay at home mothers, or they do work but their first priority is their home and family. This is by choice, not because they fear the wrath of God or anything spiritual. It's what they want. By some this is considered weak minded and backwards, but if it's truly THEIR CHOICE how can it be wrong? Isn't that what the women's movement was about? Having the choice? or at least the option if they need to take it?
If and when I get married I have no problem with the hubby being the main 'bread winner' - I still plan to work to bring in that second income, but only so far as it does not interfere with my family. Now, if, for some reason I have a job and he doesn't that's different, but so long as one of us is working the other doesn't NEED the work.. might as well go with tradition... besides the job path I would like to follow is a little more condusive to this sort of plan anyway... I can work from home as a photographer.
Last edited by Tonichelle; 05-23-2009 at 03:34 PM.
L'art pour l'art
Where exactly do you live? Hollywood?
Originally Posted by Particle Man
Sounds like a really bad place.
I think most people are actually raised to love their families. I was raised to be a good and dutiful daughter and I have always tried to fulfil my roles as a daughter, granddaughter and sister to the best of my abilities. The same way I will fulfil my roles as a mother and wife, if I am so lucky to be that one day.
Where I come from, lots of people think so. And in my extended family, I only know one divorced woman.
So wherever you live - just move away!
I like pie.
I agree with Medusa... yes there are divorces all over in the US but not all of them are as ugly as what is portrayed here, some even get back together... but it takes that seperation to make the change.... which I find incredibly encouraging and hopeful.
And considering the divorce proceedings that my brother was involved in (his bio parents' divorce, lol, Duane's not even legal age to marry!) it's not always the woman who gets everything even NOW... which is why Duane ended up with his sexually abusive father instead of his mother (who couldn't protect him anyway as his father threatend to kill her).
Some people are just ugly. Doesn't matter what race, religion, creed, or gender.
Wicked Yankee Girl
Yes, it's a fact that some people are just evil.
As to marriage stats: In my family, my one brother divorced and the other brother stayed married until he died at 49. One of our sons is married and has been so for 14 years. The other never married. 3 of my nieces have long term marriages. (one was married for less than a year, but the 2nd marriage is long term) A fourth niece had a short marriage and has not remarried. However, her first husband was an extremely abusive guy who beat her up all the time. It was a nightmare. She is very shy of relationships of any sort at this time. Of my nephews, 2 are in long term marriages. The 3rd one married the girl he was fooling around on the side with after he dumped his first wife.
I would not advise any woman to be a stay at home mom because being one drove me completely nuts (seriously seriously depressed, pretty much all the time). When my youngest went to 1st grade, I went to college, got a degree in physics, and then worked for IBM until I retired. My husband is very happy that both our pensions are quite good, rather than having too little money to cover too many expenses, so I am happy, looking back, at my choices.
However, if staying at home is what the woman wants, IMO she should definitely go for it. And all the feminists I knew from back in the day felt the same. The issue was to have a chance to choose.
But someone who chooses the stay at home mom option should realize that if it ever does come to divorce, she likely won't have enough to live on afterward because of having no skills and no work history.
I've got to say I never considered stereotypes even the slightest bit amusing or fun or funny; because they made me really, really angry. And if you look at a lot of the school shooting incidents and teenage suicides, you will find a number of them are related to 'teasing' and 'bullying' incidents.
And Particle Man, wherever you're living, you definitely need to move. Probably to a small town.
I find it extremely unfair that the woman is to blame for breaking up marriages and divorce. As they say, it takes two to tango.
My mother is a stay-at-home wife and I, as a person that's part of the 'younger generation' completely respect her choice and am grateful that she chose to raise me full-time. But at the same time, my mother has always told me to get an education for, well, the same reasons as dorispulaski outlined.
Also, I don't think the majority of women think that being a wife and mother is a backward notion to be ashamed of or a tedious chore at all. None of my friends are married (we're still in school, after all) but the general consensus among us is that being a wife and mother is fine, and is something that we look forward to along with our future careers. We know it's going to be difficult balancing a career and a family, but that's why we hope to find spouses that understand that raising a family involves both the wife and husband. And if a woman wants to be a stay-at-home mother, that's her prerogative and though we may not make the same choice, what's the point of judging? Anyways, I think the stereotype of 'modern women' or the new generation not wanting to be wives and mothers is just that--a stereotype.
Also, "traditional family values" are not necessarily fading to our detriment, but they are being changed and adapted in order to fit the world we live in today. As Eric Hobsbawm would say, traditions are invented.
Last edited by evangeline; 05-23-2009 at 05:31 PM.
Some married couples should not stay together (like my mom and dad). They would be better apart, imo. But they did stary together and we kids saw no love in marriage.
Marriage is over rated for most people, imo, and it is by no means Holy.
L'art pour l'art
That's a good point. It's not like things were necessarily better 50, 100 or 1000 years ago. Divorce was just simply forbidden, for a long time the woman was the man's property. And 50 years ago divorce might have already been legal, but it was really frowned upon.
Originally Posted by Joesitz
I remember seeing this documentary on arte (French-German culture network tv) about married couples in the fourties, fifties. They talked to the children of those couples, read diaries and letters, talked to spouses. And it was really interesting to see how something often so idyllic to the outside world, was incredibly dark and uncomfortable for the parties involved.
But still - those divorce rates are freaking high. Perhaps the entire approach to marriage is changing? E.g. in France, Sweden and other European countries more than half of the children are born to unmarried parents. I don't know if they count the PACSs in France though. (the funny thing is that the PACSs are originally intended for same-sex couples, but also available for opposite-sex couples. Lots of opposite-sex couples use this now too - because it's easier to "divorce". Now comes the joke: there are actually a lot less PACSs dissolved than marriages divorced in France. Must have something to do with less pressure)
Last edited by Medusa; 05-23-2009 at 08:16 PM.
I like pie.
well, I'll disagree there a little bit... but I will say that Paul taught that it is better to be SINGLE than married... and it's in the Bible... there are a lot of people/churches that skip over that part, but it's incredibly encouraging to me.
Originally Posted by Joesitz
there are SOME women who are the complete opposite of the "uber-feminists" who would have you believe you are a failure as a woman if you aren't a wife at an early age rearing five bazillion little ones... I grew up with several women like that in my life and I shined them on then and now. I'm seen as a failure because I didn't go to a Bible school and pick me up a good looking preacher boy. I didn't feel called to that (I seriously couldn't stand being a Pastor's wife. With all of the church politics these days blech! I'm too loyal and connected to my family, I could barely stand being a youth pastor's kid!), and I wasn't going over the line to the point of no return and I certainly am not sorry for the choices I've made as far as where I am in life. Little things, yes, but they are all learning stepping stones...
I'm rambling... but I just wanted to jump in and point the whole single thing out... even though I even forget about it sometimes... being married isn't the be all end all. Something I personally want - and if I do it "right" divorce won't HAVE to be an option - and desire, but I might be called to live something of a wanderer for all I know... who knows!
and you gotta love how random our threads become after so many pages... it cracks me up!