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Thread: Miss California

  1. #91
    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
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    I have not read much bible but I do recall it was overly concerned about women being barren. I wonder why that was such an issue?

    From the second bible, many scholars find Paul a bit strange. After stoning Stephen to death and enjoying it, he had a complete turn around and left the middle east for Greece.

  2. #92
    Wicked Yankee Girl dorispulaski's Avatar
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    Well, it's all on the subject of free speech and marriage, more or less. Some of our skating theads get even more random

    BTW, I wondered whether those in favor of ethnic jokes perhaps were thinking of a different humor form than I was thinking of. Here's some from when I was young that made me quite angry. They were all told at work, BTW:

    Why do seagulls have wings?
    To beat the Guineas to the dump.

    Why do Italians eat garbage?
    They are the only ones that know how to cook it.

    What is the difference between a French cess pool and an Italian cesspool?
    A French cess pool has a cover. An Italian cess pool has a diving board and a ladder.

    Why did the Polack paint his garbage can blue and orange?
    So his kids would think they were eating at Howard Johnson's.

    How is a Polish woman like a hockey player?
    They each change their pads every three periods.

    Why wasn't Christ born in Poland?
    They couldn't find three wise men and a virgin.

    And the racist jokes were worse, and too foul to repeat at all.

    After my boss told me the garbage can joke, I asked him, "Do you speak Polish?" He said no. I said, "How does it feel to be dumber than a Polack?"

  3. #93
    and... World Peace! Tonichelle's Avatar
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    are there people saying we should have ethnic jokes? I don't think I said that...


    Joe - "second Bible????" not sure what that is...Paul's conversion from Christian hunter to Christian himself is the ultimate 'salvation' story... if PAUL can turn his life around and work for God then anyone can make that step and change... he's a hero to most Bible scholars I know...

    and I'm not sure what you're referring to as far as barren being bad... certainly in those historic cultural times it wasn't a good thing, but Biblically?

  4. #94
    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
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    No offence intended Tonichelle. Just thinking out loud. I'm not a bible lover as everyone knows. Too much scientific discovery gets in the way. And now, the Missing Link?

  5. #95
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    Actually, the Bible never really "says" being barren was a bad thing, but it makes it clear that being barren in the context of the time it was being written was...not exactly the best thing in the world. Something to be ashamed of, sometimes even seen as a curse upon the woman. Of the top of my head, I can recall many Bible stories in which women who were barren were seen as desolate or 'not as good' before God apparently intervened: Rachel before she had Joseph and Benjamin, Hannah before she had Samuel, Michal.

    If I recall correctly, these attitudes stemmed from outdated cultural views reflecting the time when the Bible was written, when the only worth of a woman was to be someone's wife and bear children as heirs for her husband. If a woman was not able to fulfill the role of bearing children, she was seen as a failure. This, I suppose, also explains why historically, the woman is blamed when she also has daughters instead of sons.

  6. #96
    Wicked Yankee Girl dorispulaski's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tonichelle View Post
    are there people saying we should have ethnic jokes? I don't think I said that... ?
    Okay, but if we don't have a certain level of political correctness, we will have the racist & ethnic jokes again. In fact, that is one of things I thought you were advocating, but evidently I was wrong. About which I am glad, BTW. It seemed unlike you.

    Ethnic jokes are one of the things people complaining about PCness that I know are usually lamenting - the loss of those jokes. A key phrase from them is 'humorless' coupled with a complaint about modern PCness.

  7. #97
    L'art pour l'art Medusa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dorispulaski View Post
    Ethnic jokes are one of the things people complaining about PCness that I know are usually lamenting - the loss of those jokes. A key phrase from them is 'humorless' coupled with a complaint about modern PCness.
    I didn't mean that. I meant that I have difficulties with considering all the important points of human communication (basic politeness, emotional signs, gestures), that I am really at loss with political correctness. It's just too much at once. I simply can't remember not to call black people black or stuff like that. I am not telling jokes anyway and also don't understand most of the jokes other people tell.

    I also don't care of other people aren't PC towards me. I memember this attending physician (very handsome, Tunisian descent) at ICU where I worked for some time and he kept calling me "Schätzchen" (equivalent of babe or sweetie pie). Nobody could understand why I didn't complain. But I simply didn't care. The physician taught me a lot of things, gave me responsibility, treated me like an equal, always answered my question, didn't mock my questions, was easy to work with. What did I care how he called me? That's just words.

  8. #98
    and... World Peace! Tonichelle's Avatar
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    well Job's "friends" were also really hard on him and saying he was out of favor with God when he was far from it... just because certain women didn't have children it wasn't that God thought less of them, otherwise he'd have not given them the desire of their heart (which in all of the women mentioned above was a child).


    Doris - no I have a problem with people just immediately screaming racist/sexist/bigot just because someone dares believe/feel something different. Not just on the big issues, but the small as well. I'm not an advocate of racial/ethnic jokes... I don't have a problem with blonde jokes (or brunette or male vs women jokes - normally the joke's on the guy anyway ) but that's me... I think hair color is a little less of a negative thing. That's just me...

    I'm not into racial profiling or anything like that either...

    I do have a problem with the fact that you can't even describe a person by their skin color/ethnicity without people immediately taking offense. It's like they automatically think it's bad. Um, no. Sometimes you HAVE to have that in the context of the story you're telling or whatever... like the jokes that my mom and her best friend have (the inside jokes) in order to explain them they have to say "well, my bf's white or my bf's black..." otherwise people just look at them funny....

    I'm not saying PC is all bad. I think the version we have now where we censor SO MUCH and are 1. paranoid of what we be ACCUSED of saying and 2. getting our hackles up to be offended before anything is even said - does NOTHING to move society forward and seems to be working backwards... I swear there's a new sort of segregation that just shouldn't exist but it has to for fear of offending the other groups... (be them racial or religious or whatever!)
    Last edited by Tonichelle; 05-24-2009 at 07:11 PM.

  9. #99
    Wicked Yankee Girl dorispulaski's Avatar
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    I think blonde jokes are just "women are stupid" jokes recast. They are seldom seldom told about stupid men with blonde hair. Lots of times, in fact, I recognize the joke from back in the day when it was told about women in general without the blonde part, just as most of the Polish and Italian jokes were told interchangeably about both groups. In fact, the only ethnic jokes I ever found funny were ones where a true characteristic of the group was part of the joke, and which didn't have as a main punchline "They are so stupid".

    For example: Did you know only 6 people were actually killed by the atomic bomb in Hiroshima? The others were all trampled to death by Polacks looking for the big mushroom. (As it happens, my Polish relatives all adore mushrooms, and they have many great recipes for them, including sauerkraut & mushroom pierogis (Yum))

    The issue I think is that I do not get to choose what offends someone else. And I would like to avoid offending people as much as possible. OTOH, I hope they would educate me about what offends them, if it's non obvious, or when the correct term that's polite keeps changing.

  10. #100
    L'art pour l'art Medusa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dorispulaski View Post
    For example: Did you know only 6 people were actually killed by the atomic bomb in Hiroshima? The others were all trampled to death by Polacks looking for the big mushroom.
    That one might not have a "they are so stupid" punchline - but I still find it extremely tasteless and highly insensitive, to use a huge and horrific tragedy like Hiroshima as part of a joke, especially since the joke mocks the tragedy. This is definitely not PC in my book (and maybe the Polish don't feel mocked, but the Japanese might feel a bit uneasy about it). Additionally the joke describes basically a stampede and, well, there are definitely not many things that are less funny than a stampede and it's consequences.

  11. #101
    Custom Title antmanb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Particle Man View Post
    Watch any given night of network television, and figure it out. Part of it is ultra-feminist man-hating. The rest of it is because political correctness has tied the writers hands so much, that the only people left they can use as the constant butt of jokes are white men.
    Excuse me while i get my hanky....

    Ant

  12. #102
    and... World Peace! Tonichelle's Avatar
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    ant!

    unfortunately, or fortunately, most jokes means someone/thing is going to be the butt of it... that's the nature of comedy at the moment - or perhaps it's always been...

    it's like the lightbulb jokes... I absolutely love the one that goes through the different "Christian" denominations... it shows the ridiculousness of each group, and while not ever Baptist, Catholic, whatever act like that, as a group you know that it does happen. Otherwise so many pastors/priests wouldn't mention it in their sermons.. I have to think that other groups also get that.

    However I think it's best to know your material AND your audience... and I think that audience, in turn, needs to realize that if they're going into ANY conversation guarding themselves and waiting to be offended they might as well stop before they start... that's my biggest problem with the whole thing. We're trained, anymore, to be immediately offended whether or not that was the "offender's" intention...

  13. #103
    Custom Title antmanb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tonichelle View Post
    ant!

    unfortunately, or fortunately, most jokes means someone/thing is going to be the butt of it... that's the nature of comedy at the moment - or perhaps it's always been...
    Ok i know, but puhlease, white men have it sooooooo hard . White men are the most privileged people on the earth and make up something like 1% of the population.

    If you add in the fact that the writer making the original statements is also straight and by world standards wealthy, forgive me if my heart doesn't bleed that someone on some US TV station once made a joke about a man (i'm just not seeing the vitriol against men on my TV shows and i watch a lot of crap comedy tv but then i do have very bizarre sense of humour, i'm not offended by bad language or jokes of a sexual nature, i can accept a lot of ribbing of me or any of my characteristics to a certain point but then perhaps i just recognise that in the grand scheme of things i'm in one of the most privileged categories in the world so having a sense of humour and humility is vital to me).

    I guess I just don't see how complaining about how hard men have it is an argument that even begins to fly.

    Individuals all have heartbreaking stories that go against the "norm" but it is very clear what the norm is in reality and that is that women are still discriminated against far more than men are, that is just a fact. And while some men might have stories that show the opposite, overall they're the exception that prove the rule. If men are having such a hard time in comedy they should maybe get a sense of humour and laugh that is the only place they might find they are discriminated against, because in nearly every other walk of life they still have it far better than women (and everyone else int he world!).

    Ant

  14. #104
    Wicked Yankee Girl dorispulaski's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Medusa View Post
    That one might not have a "they are so stupid" punchline - but I still find it extremely tasteless and highly insensitive, to use a huge and horrific tragedy like Hiroshima as part of a joke, especially since the joke mocks the tragedy. This is definitely not PC in my book (and maybe the Polish don't feel mocked, but the Japanese might feel a bit uneasy about it). Additionally the joke describes basically a stampede and, well, there are definitely not many things that are less funny than a stampede and it's consequences.
    I didn't say it was PC...it isn't.

    But 30 years ago, this is one of the few Polish jokes, of the 1000's and 1000's I was interminably told and was supposed to laugh at to demonstrate that Poles were 'good sports' that I actually laughed at, rather than faking it. Today, I wouldn't laugh, for the reasons you put forth. (which is why I used the past tense, when I recounted the joke)

    And as to the funnyness of a stampede-30/40 years ago, a saying was "as funny as a truckload of dead babies on mother's day". The 'humor' of 30 or 40 years ago is one of the reasons PC is and is not what it is now. A great deal of it was very unpleasant in many different ways.

    Toni, you're right that a major theme in humor has always been denigration of people not in the joke teller's group. Fine examples can be found in ancient Greek comedies where the people from Soloi were the butt of similar jokes to our current 'redneck' jokes.

    http://grammar.about.com/od/rs/g/solecismterm.htm

    Barbarians is another word from the ancient Greek, and is a slur, of course. Barbarians are non Greek speakers, whose language was supposed to sound like 'bar bar bar.'

    Theories of humor are not pleasant:

    Humor is aggression
    http://www.tomveatch.com/else/humor/paper/node15.html
    Humor is assertion of superiority
    http://www.tomveatch.com/else/humor/paper/node16.html

    Thomas Hobbes, in a compositional analysis of the range of human emotions (1651/1958), points out the role of the feeling of superiority in humor.


    LAUGHTER .. is caused ... by [among other things] the apprehension of some deformed thing in another, by comparison whereof they suddenly applaud themselves. (Part 1, Chapter 6, p. 57)
    Toni, do you feel that you have been programmed to be offended, BTW?

    From your posts, I know you are a Christian. If I suddenly made a series of jokes (or posts for that matter) about "Jesus freaks" or "God squadders" or "wingnuts", I suspect you would be offended. And you would have a right to be offended.

    If I were that offensive, as to say those things, I would far rather you told me you were offended than risk offending you again. I don't think it's right to downgrade others' feelings by saying they have them because they were 'programmed' to have them, and thus implying they were really not hurt or annoyed by the offensive saying.

    In fact, I'm glad Medusa told me he/she was offended at the Hiroshima joke, for just that reason. If you don't educate people, they will never do better.

    It is the onus on the speaker not to be offensive. For one thing, good quality communication can only occur when both parties are avoiding turns of speech that annoy or offend. If I am furious at you, we are no longer communicating, for example. I am busy picturing your head exploding like the guy in the movie Network.

    I don't think that I (as in the Hiroshima joke case) or any other speaker/writer is owed understanding because he did not mean to offend (and I did not mean to offend). What the offending speaker is owed is an assumption that ignorance or thoughtlessness (rather than eville bigotries or ill will) caused the violation, and a correction. If the speaker then repeats the offense, it's another case.
    Last edited by dorispulaski; 05-26-2009 at 05:47 PM.

  15. #105
    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
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    Miss California knew what she was talking about. She' not a dumb blonde joke. She's against gay marriage, and therefore carefully weighs on the equality of all people.

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