2009/2010 Programs

Joesitz (RIP) · Jun 18, 2009

janetfan said:
Um, no, that would NOT be correct.
I am fine with no attempt at telling a story. Likewise, I see nothing wrong with what Kat did with Carmen. In the end it all gets down to how well the program is skated - costumes and thematic interpretation can enhance or at times detract from a program.

I think the subject of the discussion is the overuse of Carmen's story and the hope that something knew will appear, like the music without story.

However, if you think figure skating can do it better than opera then let's have the story.

janetfan · Jun 18, 2009

Joesitz said:
I think the subject of the discussion is the overuse of Carmen's story and the hope that something knew will appear, like the music without story.

However, if you think figure skating can do it better than opera then let's have the story.

I don't think that is what I said Joe - but feel free to interpret my remarks anyway you please.

(Or read my post more carefully)

amateur · Jun 18, 2009

I'm late to join this thread, but to those who were expressing negativity about Dube & Davison's Carmen at the beginning, I found their performance at Canadian Nationals to be really quite good, and perhaps the only one that started to show the spark and potential of that program. It seemed to go downhill from there, at the later competitions - perhaps due to some personal relationship/chemistry issues that were speculated? I am actually glad they are keeping this program, as I think they can really make something of it, with the added comfort and familiarity, if they commit to really pushing their expression. Good choreo and music cuts - I think the material is there. It's a bit subtle and requires a lot of polish, which are the qualities they go for.. but need to add fire, not get trapped in blandness and nice-ness as they are prone to. (and they need to bring back that cool ending where she fell out of the final spin into the splits, if she can manage it)

beep_beep · Jun 18, 2009

Joesitz said:
Nothing wrong with Carmen if some skater could actually do something different with it.

I don't really think it's just the originality, but I think you're on to something here. I think it's actually about interpreting the music very well.

There's a reason Carmen, Swan Lake, Tosca, Bolero etc are so popular because people recognise and like them. The problem is that, because they are overused, there is a good number of really good interpretations already made, and the skater that decides to use this music is bound to be compared with them. So just a good interpretation is not enough.

The message is: if you're going for a warhorse, better own it !!

shine · Jun 18, 2009

janetfan said:
How about Johnny as a tragic Carmen Or perhaps Yuna as the Toreador
Yes, skating needs such fresh new interpretations of Carmen like polar bears need more global warming

Well, there's nothing wrong with bringing something new to a piece that has been done to death. The music may be tired, but the choreography could also use something new.

Medusa · Jun 18, 2009

shine said:
Well, there's nothing wrong with bringing something new to a piece that has been done to death. The music may be tired, but the choreography could also use something new.

I think that's exactly what everybody thinks, that she / he / they will bring something new to the music, that it will be memorable, that they will be the ones to really shine with this music. But in my opinion the most memorable bolero is still Torvill / Dean, the most memorable Carmen is still Witt.

And I am sorry, but when was the last warhorse that was really "Bang up job!"? I don't think Kim's Sheherezade was anything special - of course she is pretty, of course she has strong jumps, of course she is fast, of course she has an expressive face and body - but she didn't own the music in my opinion. There was nothing special to her interpretation. Lysacek could just as well skate to Metallica every time (just take his programs, switch your video player on mute - and put Metallica on - works like a charm with every single one of his programs). Don't want to bash Lysacek here, because the same goes actually for Johnny too - but in his case you can put all sorts of ballads on and it nearly always works.

I am always severely disappointed that one of my favourites - Joubert - is so completely unimaginative with his music choices and choreography. But perhaps he is simply honest. He doesn't pretend to be Carmen, or some tragic movie / opera character. He just goes out there, puts some "boom-boom"-music on and does what he loves: skates fast, produces some crowd-pleasing footwork and jumps.

~tapdancer · Jun 18, 2009

I really don't mind the "warhorses". Although I agree with beep_beep, you'd better own it. Classics are called classics for a reason. It's great music. I'd rather the unusual music be saved for exhibitions and shows, not competition. I like the familiar music and also love soundtracks. That's what I like to see skaters skate to. I'd rather they interpret the classics in their own way and give us a new way to see a classic or inspire us with great skating to stirring music.

I love both Pink Floyd and Muse (for example) but it really doesn't make me like a skating team or the program just because they use that music. There has to be more than that.

janetfan · Jun 18, 2009

IMO "Carmen" is still expressive, colorful and full of rhythmic vitality. It is not the music that has changed or is "dead." I agree that when the "secret" music is announced we may see Carmen pop up again - and with a very big name.
Like many things music taste is subjective. I for one, would be happy to never hear "Phantom" again , whether in an elevator or when watching skating. But that doesn't mean Patrick won't do well with it this season. If he skates well I will l will enjoy his skating even if I don't like the music so much.
Joubert is kind of unique. I agree with Medusa that he just goes out and shows us his own personality. Do we need him changing into one of Tat's heroic/tragic figures to enjoy his skating more? For me no - but for other's maybe they want him acting out a fantasy role.
Maybe it is good that skater's have such diversified styles and personalities. Sometimes I hear Mao and Caroline being accused of skating like mannequins. I don't get it or feel that way. I love watching them both skate and find them very expressive. I enjoy the fact they are not using mock dramatic expressions or smiling on cue.

seniorita · Jun 18, 2009

I like phantom music, Takahashi's version was great!I m sure chan will create lots of drama with this music. Maybe he will skate to different roles of the musical.

Medusa · Jun 18, 2009

seniorita said:
I like phantom music, Takahashi's version was great!I m sure chan will create lots of drama with this music. Maybe he will skate to different roles of the musical.

When has somebody ever skated to different roles in a skating program? I know Weir tried it with Notre Dame - but I didn't get it.

childfreegirl · Jun 18, 2009

1795 said:
im getting tired.

p.s. all these music choices that are pubished and set are still so...hackneyed. i need something new! more variety! as beautiful as they portray it, i dont want another rendition of a piazzolla, a performance on rachmaninoff piano piece...bleh

I wish someone would skate to the new Star Trek movie soundtrack. When I saw the movie, it took me a couple of minutes and then I realized there is so much usable material. I don't know when the cd for that came out though. Maybe it was too late for a program to be done for this year. IMO, movie soundtracks seem like they are underused, espically in an Olympic year. For that matter, so is popular music. Add me to the list of those who are sick of skaters skating to the same old "safe" stuff.

Joesitz (RIP) · Jun 18, 2009

janetfan said:
I don't think that is what I said Joe - but feel free to interpret my remarks anyway you please.
(Or read my post more carefully)

Janetfan - It's just that I hate the use of stories of large operas in a 4 minute routine and see skaters making a mockery by stabbing themselves as high art.

A skater could take the essence of a character in an opera and skate as if that character had skates on, and use the music without the story.

The argument going through these pages, so you want to see another Katt version of Carmen? or worse, do you want to watch another Carmen. Most fans seem to be interested in new musics and not the warhorses.

My suggestion was just to use the music and forget the story. You don't seem to get that it was just a suggestion. It would be an original use of the Bizet music. It seems that you must have the story as the best approach rather than tolerate the music without. No? and it is always worth while watching Carmen every season.

Why can't Figure Skating become an Original?

seniorita · Jun 18, 2009

Medusa said:
When has somebody ever skated to different roles in a skating program? I know Weir tried it with Notre Dame - but I didn't get it.

I was going to say weir's notre dame and plush's carmen, but i didnt understand neither of them also.
First time I read they skated different characters was sometime ago, and it was in yuna's blog, she had written her impressions of plush's carmen.

janetfan · Jun 18, 2009

Joesitz said:
Janetfan - It's just that I hate the use of stories of large operas in a 4 minute routine and see skaters making a mockery by stabbing themselves as high art.

A skater could take the essence of a character in an opera and skate as if that character had skates on, and use the music without the story.

The argument going through these pages, so you want to see another Katt version of Carmen? or worse, do you want to watch another Carmen. Most fans seem to be interested in new musics and not the warhorses.

My suggestion was just to use the music and forget the story. You don't seem to get that it was just a suggestion. It would be an original use of the Bizet music. It seems that you must have the story as the best approach rather than tolerate the music without. No? and it is always worth while watching Carmen every season.

Why can't Figure Skating become an Original?

I like your idea Joe. I think for skaters like Evan and Joubert it is the way to go - "absolute skating" to "absolute music." But I also don't have a problem if Yuna is planning to do a new "Operatic styled" version of 'Carmen."
For me the main thing in skating - is the skating - and not bringing a character from an opera or Broadway show to life.
BTW, a popular symphonic selection to play is "Carmen Suite." Orchestras typically get a good response to this selection and the performance is purely instrumental, no vocals, with no nod to red dresses, gypsies or torreadors.
So I agree with you - but also don't mind the mascara and red dress if the skating is good. About originality - has CoP really helped in that area?

Mathman · Jun 18, 2009

janetfan said:
BTW, a popular symphonic selection to play is "Carmen Suite."

Michelle Kwan, 1999 short program ("Fate of Carmen") :love:

Joesitz (RIP) · Jun 18, 2009

janetfan said:
I like your idea Joe. I think for skaters like Evan and Joubert it is the way to go - "absolute skating" to "absolute music." But I also don't have a problem if Yuna is planning to do a new "Operatic styled" version of 'Carmen."
For me the main thing in skating - is the skating - and not bringing a character from an opera or Broadway show to life.
BTW, a popular symphonic selection to play is "Carmen Suite." Orchestras typically get a good response to this selection and the performance is purely instrumental, no vocals, with no nod to red dresses, gypsies or torreadors.
So I agree with you - but also don't mind the mascara and red dress if the skating is good. About originality - has CoP really helped in that area?

Yeah, Janetfan, you seem to be 50-50 with the story and music only. I'm an old fuddy duddy and do not consider Carmen even a good opera. It belongs on stage as a musical, yes, but not opera. Carmen Jones was my cup-of-tea for that story. But it sellls big in opera houses. Keeps the money rolling in and the company is able to put on productions not as popular. (Swan Lake is like that in ballet.) And Carmen is not like Salome which is far superior as an opera, imo. but an interesting comparison between the two title characters. Carmen is a low life prostitute and Salome is a princess and a virgin. Getting the essence of those two characters would take more than using mommie's make-up for a 4 minute summary.

CoP is fine for the sport. It is not at all good for performance. Too many restrictions, imo. I think serious skaters should stay away from silly exhibitions and work on making skating an artform. CoP will not allow for that as it now stands. JMO

janetfan · Jun 18, 2009

Kunstrijdster said:
I'm just curious. Would that, in your opinion, perhaps be more along the line of Debbie Thomas' Carmen in 1988?

I recall only that it was a "nightmare" performance that night. Skated cleanly her program was more difficult that Kats and she probably would have won (if the judging was fair). To be honest I haven't watched it for years because I was so upset for Debbi.

I really like both styles of skating - but take Joubert as an example. I like him and feel no need for him to become a "character." Just skate clean and show me those explosive jumps, some personality (his own) and I will put him on the podium everytime.
With Sasha - I can feel differently. I love her "castenets" and other things she may bring to a performance.
For Russian boys - I say show better judgement with your Galas!!

janetfan · Jun 18, 2009

Kunstrijdster said:
I just asked because I'm reading a book (Culture on Ice, thanks Mathman) where it is said that Debbie actually did not play a role but displayed the character's, Carmen's, strength with her power on the ice.

That sounds pretty much like what Joe had said earlier:
So I wondered if he would consider Debbie's performance as an example for what he suggested.

I just realized your question was directed to Joe. I hope he answers. I think you are right though.

Joesitz (RIP) · Jun 18, 2009

Kunstrijdster said:
I'm just curious. Would that, in your opinion, perhaps be more along the line of Debbie Thomas' Carmen in 1988?

Is there a youtube of Debbie's Carmen in 1988. I only remember her kind of tripping on a lutz landing and saying to myself, that's the end of gold.

If you've watched American Idol, the judges do not like a contestant to sing a tune the way the original singer did, but to innovate the tune

That's what I am looking for when I suggest the essence of the music. I would like to see innovation, and not the tired old red dressed Carmen which we have seen time and again. Maybe Debbie did it. Dunno.

seniorita · Jun 18, 2009

not very good quality but here it is
Debi Thomas 1988 Olympics LP
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EGa0XEDqBkQ
As a skater she looks far better than Witt, was she better in general? I watch it and i like carmen more than Witt's although i dont remember Witt's now.

2009/2010 Programs

Joesitz (RIP)

janetfan

Match Penalty

amateur

beep_beep

shine

Medusa

~tapdancer

janetfan

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seniorita

Medusa

childfreegirl

Joesitz (RIP)

seniorita

janetfan

Match Penalty

Mathman

Joesitz (RIP)

janetfan

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janetfan

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Joesitz (RIP)

seniorita

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