2009-10 ISU Grand Prix selection guidelines

Joesitz (RIP) · May 9, 2009

Red Dog said:
I don't know the Lake Placid area, or even where it was located until I looked at a map. I was actually considering going there before I knew where it was, since I'd be on the Eastern seaboard at event time- that is, if it was within commute of NYC. Apparently it's not even close, so I scrapped that idea promptly.

RD - I skiid at Whiteface Mountain many times and many moons ago, and Lake Placid is where one looks to stay over for a weekend. From Manhattan, and on a chartered bus it took 6 plus hours each way. I think driving might get you there in 5 hours but not sure. On a cold snowy night it is not the happiest of driving.

Maybe one can fly to Albany and pick up a rental to drive the rest of the way.

I think the USFS is penny wise and pound foolish. Maybe the Skating Club of NY could have worked it into Madison Square Garden, although the Garden is a huge barn. Maybe Baltimore would work.

Maybe, maybe, maybe.

fairly4 · May 9, 2009

For all you think Sasha will only get one,
Check out the Minneapolis-St.Paul paper where David Raith a USFSA executive states Sasha will be in SA < because of first one chosen and, personally he thinks Cup of Russia, (not correct name) Trophy De Bompard and Cup of China will also invite and /or at least looking into her.
so it will be hard for other us skaters to get two or one, depending on draw.
yes, i personnally don't like sasha because or her actions and the fact the usfsa and older skaters handed everything when she was younger. She and the usfsa feels she is entitles to this. sorry-but that is what i think and feel.

Mathman · May 9, 2009

^ Here's the same report from the San Francisco papers.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2009/05/08/SPFK17HEN8.DTL

Cohen fans, mark your calendars. It's a "logical assumption" the Olympic silver medalist will be at Skate America in November, U.S. Figure Skating executive director David Raith said.

Cohen announced this week she's returning to competitive skating after a three-year layoff in hopes of making the Vancouver Games. Grand Prix assignments will be made May 30.

"She's not automatic. But I think when her name shows up on the list, she'll be one of the first chosen," Raith said. Skate America, which is Nov. 13-15 in Lake Placid, N.Y., has the first rights to Cohen.

That sounds pretty official to me. (Particle man gets the last laugh undeed! :bow:

)

David Raith is the executive director of USFS. He would not be falling all over himself about Sasha without first consulting with the other officers of the organization. Skate America sounds like a done deal.

As for the part about about all the other federations being eager to get in line to sign her up once USFS submits her name, this may be Raith's attempt to influence the ISU about the interpretation of the "through no fault of her own" rule. Hey, is it Sasha's fault that SOI couldn't do without her?

PolymerBob · May 9, 2009

Mathman said:
Anyway, if I were Shep Goldberg (Caroline's agent) I would be lobbying the USFSA as hard as I could to get Caroline's face on U.S. television as much as possible between now and the Olympics. It might mean a Wheaties box for her!

You mean something like this?

evangeline · May 9, 2009

PolymerBob said:
You mean something like this?

This has inspired me to create my own Caroline Wheaties Box when I go home and get my laptop...perhaps we should have a GoldenSkate Caroline Wheaties Box Contest? :laugh:

feraina · May 9, 2009

PolymerBob said:
You mean something like this?

Hilarious!

But, unfortunately I don't think Caroline's agent and her team in general have any intention to increase the level of publicity. She said several times that her agent's role is to help her keep a low profile, to minimize publicity and its interference with her training.

Personally, I think that's a mistake. I think with Sasha back in the picture (and seemingly assured of a ticket to Vancouver), and the even-matchedness of the younger skaters, getting that other berth will come down to who can stir the greatest amount of excitement in the public's imagination. Alissa probably won last season because many people thought that the public would be excited about having a "ladies' champion" instead of a "girls' champion", something that her team tirelessly promoted up until the night before the LP.

Well, GP results might matter, too. But despite the rule changes, USFSA will likely pick the team largely according to National's, and National's judging has shown great willingness to massage the results accordingly to however they like.

feraina · May 9, 2009

Mathman said:
I don't know why Caroline fans think she will have a tougher time at Skate America than at some other GP event.

Well, myself as a Caroline fan think that it's a great shame that Sasha will take that third spot probably away from Caroline. SA is a great opportunity to get more exposure in the US, and I actually think that Olympic selection will largely come down to a "popularity contest." In Caroline's case, anyway, she has consistently had a harder time at National's than subsequent ISU championships. Her biggest hurdle always seems to be getting onto that Worlds team (and next year, Olympics team).

Plus, as MM has noted, SA will probably be the best field for Caroline to skate against. Forced to face two seeds at every GP, she will probably be best off against Miki and Rachael. And at SA she's unlikely to face the strong unseeded skaters Yukari or Carolina.

I'm okay with Sasha's returning, but I'm really bummed that Caroline will miss out on SA because of that. And now her dream of making the Olympic team is receding farther into the horizon, and the fact that she wasn't sent to the World's to help earn that third spot is more galling than ever.

Well, here's some sincere wishing that she will have her own "Salome moment" and come out winning big on the GP next season, no matter where she's sent (just not NHK, yikes!), and make it impossible for her to be ignored, even if she will have no TV exposure until National's.

Joesitz (RIP) · May 9, 2009

I think the USFS will choose Rachael as their 4-6 spot Her name comes up first and I think other Feds will pass her by for whatever reasons. So SA will have YuNa, Yukari and Rachael. If Sasha gets in this scenario, how well do you think she will do? If you substitute Miki for YuNa, I do not see much difference, add on Mirai and Kimmie, Caroline or Ashley and what do you have at SA for Sasha to get a second SP. If she does get 3rd place, I believe she would want Paris which she always enjoyed and which will probably be the silver medal will be the easiest to win.

For Russia, Leonova is a very consistent skater with lots of triples for COR plus Joannie and Mao possibly.

The USFS could be impressed, if if if if..........

Bring on the results of the Draw and let's talk more.

chuckm · May 9, 2009

Uh, Joe, TEB is the first GP, so Sasha finishing 3rd at SA wouldn't factor into that.

Spun Silver · May 9, 2009

I have to say, as much as I love Sasha and know US skating needs her for the attention she'll attract, I think she's the underdog here. Sasha already referred to herself as a grandma in the skating world when she was 21, compared with people like Kimmie and Mao. It's a young person's sport. I'd give Caroline the edge. Sasha is talking (or at least is quoted as talking) as if her only competition is on the international level but I think it would be a big mistake for her to underestimate her national rivals. She's aging, but they're maturing.

Caroline is very fortunate that Sasha is going to be the one to bear an Olympic mountain of pressure on her shoulders. Meanwhile Caroline can keep training under the radar. She's young, uninjured, and has at least one more Olympics in her after this. The competition will force her to step up her game and there's no telling what will triumph - innocence or experience.

I do think it's very cynical and wrong-headed to set it up in advance as a case of judging bias if Sasha wins, though. Have a little more faith in the judges, and your skater.

Me, I'm rooting for the brilliant, erratic underdog.

PolymerBob · May 9, 2009

Spun Silver said:
I do think it's very cynical and wrong-headed to set it up in advance as a case of judging bias if Sasha wins, though. Have a little more faith in the judges, and your skater.

Judging bias seems to be more of a problem at Nationals than ISU events. If Sasha wins Skate America in front of ISU judges, she will probably deserve it.

At Nationals however, we know that the judges can make their favorite win. So the question is - How does a skater become their favorite? Well, Caroline was the top American lady in her last 4 ISU events. She will have 2, maybe 3 more ISU events before Nationals. If she can stay top American, the USFSA judges will treat her better than last year. If she can WIN an event, they will be ready to hand her the gold before she even skates.

R.D. · May 9, 2009

First off, :chorus: at the Caroline Zhang Wheaties box...her name is printed so small too :rofl:

Second, I wonder if Meissner is eligible for a GP and whether she would be considered for SA. I'm willing to bet that it will wind up being Flatt/Czisny/Cohen, with either Nagasu or Zhang in line as an alternate (unless they get two others). But Kimmie should at least get some international experience- it would be a shame if she's relegated to the nationals qualifying comps.

And third, even though Cohen may indeed get that SA assignment, that's no guarantee that she will show up. Of course, given that she is in good health she would, but based on her competitive history I would not get discouraged about Zhang (or whomever) losing a spot. If Cohen withdraws, someone will get it back. (I think?? Unless the other US skaters can get two other GPs.)

I think [Cohen is] the underdog here.

Hard to tell until she actually skates and sees the scores she gets.

ANW · May 9, 2009

I completely agree with you. Someone needs to enlighten her parents (they were from China, I guess they know little about what the publicity is) the whole "Coach Mingzhu Li + Kwan Connection" low-profile Chinese thing will get Caroline nowhere on this stage. She needs to step into the spotlight, let people know her. Granted, the attention will bring the huge pressure on Caroline. But that's the part of deal being a sportsman, you cannot dream being a sports champion without being noticed. And her family needs to find a better agent. Shep Goldberg is a lousy lousy lousy one, his handling of Michelle Kwan in 98 Olympics was a huge mistake.

feraina said:
Hilarious!

But, unfortunately I don't think Caroline's agent and her team in general have any intention to increase the level of publicity. She said several times that her agent's role is to help her keep a low profile, to minimize publicity and its interference with her training.

Personally, I think that's a mistake. I think with Sasha back in the picture (and seemingly assured of a ticket to Vancouver), and the even-matchedness of the younger skaters, getting that other berth will come down to who can stir the greatest amount of excitement in the public's imagination. Alissa probably won last season because many people thought that the public would be excited about having a "ladies' champion" instead of a "girls' champion", something that her team tirelessly promoted up until the night before the LP.

Well, GP results might matter, too. But despite the rule changes, USFSA will likely pick the team largely according to National's, and National's judging has shown great willingness to massage the results accordingly to however they like.

Mathman · May 9, 2009

I think the guessing is pretty much over about the U.S. ladies at Skate America.

USFS executive director just said quite unambigously that they will take Sasha. I don't think Skate America has ever declined to invite the U.S. national champion, so Alissa's in. Rachael is one of the seeded skaters, so she will certainly be Skate America's choice from the 4-6 group.

I cannot see the ISU allowing Sasha to skate in a second event. To do so they would have to throw out their own rule -- which was just announced a couple of weeks ago -- about eligibility for returning skaters. They would have to go back and pass a new rule that says, oh, by the way, last week's rule applies to all skaters except those named Sasha Cohen.

As for Caroline Zhang, she will get her chance to shine at two other events. Cup of China and Eric Bompard will be glad to grab her. I expect USFS to do its usual competant job of mild arm-twisting to get at least one invitation for their other qualified skaters like Mirai, Ashley and Kimmie.

If Sasha should happen to withdraw before Skate America, they could use that spot to give a second event to whoever scores the highest in their first one.

R.D. · May 9, 2009

USFS executive director just said quite unambigously that they will take Sasha. I don't think Skate America has ever declined to invite the U.S. national champion, so Alissa's in. Rachael is one of the seeded skaters, so she will certainly be Skate America's choice from the 4-6 group.

I don't know how the seeding thing works but where is the quote that Raith said they would take Cohen to SA. I just read him say that they'd welcome her back and she would be a great addition to an already deep US field.

As for Caroline Zhang, she will get her chance to shine at two other events. Cup of China and Eric Bompard will be glad to grab her. I expect USFS to do its usual competant job of mild arm-twisting to get at least one invitation for their other qualified skaters like Mirai, Ashley and Kimmie.

Let's hope so.

If Sasha should happen to withdraw before Skate America, they could use that spot to give a second event to whoever scores the highest in their first one.

Right now I would put the probability of her withdrawing at 50/50. Let's flip a coin. Heads or tails?

(FTR, she did SA in 2001 and 2003, but backed out in 2004 and 2005- she didn't get SA in 2002 IIRC- that's how I reached that statistic

)

I like your idea though. If they give it to Kimmie that probably means no sectionals for her (like Em Hughes last year).

Mathman · May 9, 2009

Red Dog said:
I don't know how the seeding thing works but where is the quote that Raith said they would take Cohen to SA. I just read him say that they'd welcome her back and she would be a great addition to an already deep US field.

Posts #142 and 143 on this thread.

From the San Francisco Chronical

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2009/05/08/SPFK17HEN8.DTL

Cohen fans, mark your calendars. It's a "logical assumption" the Olympic silver medalist will be at Skate America in November, U.S. Figure Skating executive director David Raith said.

Cohen announced this week she's returning to competitive skating after a three-year layoff in hopes of making the Vancouver Games. Grand Prix assignments will be made May 30.

"She's not automatic. But I think when her name shows up on the list, she'll be one of the first chosen," Raith said. Skate America, which is Nov. 13-15 in Lake Placid, N.Y., has the first rights to Cohen.

Mathman · May 9, 2009

ANW said:
I completely agree with you. Someone needs to enlighten her parents (they were from China, I guess they know little about what the publicity is) the whole "Coach Mingzhu Li + Kwan Connection" low-profile Chinese thing will get Caroline nowhere on this stage...

And her family needs to find a better agent. Shep Goldberg is a lousy lousy lousy one, his handling of Michelle Kwan in 98 Olympics was a huge mistake.

How did Mr. Goldberg misfire in promoting Michelle Kwan in 1998? She didn't win the Olympic gold medal, but she quickly became a household name and a millionaire through endorsements. More so than the Olympic champion, Tara.

PolymerBob · May 9, 2009

feraina said:
But, unfortunately I don't think Caroline's agent and her team in general have any intention to increase the level of publicity. She said several times that her agent's role is to help her keep a low profile, to minimize publicity and its interference with her training.

I didn't want to say anything, but I have trouble understanding this. They hired an agent, at considerable expense, to keep Caroline OUT of the news media? Does Shep stand outside Caroline's front door and fight off reporters with Chinese nunchaku ?

chuckm · May 9, 2009

PolymerBob said:
Well, Caroline was the top American lady in her last 4 ISU events. She will have 2, maybe 3 more ISU events before Nationals. If she can stay top American, the USFSA judges will treat her better than last year. If she can WIN an event, they will be ready to hand her the gold before she even skates.

Rachael was the top US lady at both her GP events (4th at SA and 2nd at CoR), while Caroline was 5th and 3rd at her GP events. Rachael is the National silver medalist, and finished top 5 at Worlds. Rachael is also in the "A" envelope, while Caroline is in "B". So I don't see that Caroline is the "top American".

R.D. · May 9, 2009

chuckm said:
Rachael was the top US lady at both her GP events (4th at SA and 2nd at CoR), while Caroline was 5th and 3rd at her GP events. Rachael is the National silver medalist, and finished top 5 at Worlds. Rachael is also in the "A" envelope, while Caroline is in "B". So I don't see that Caroline is the "top American".

The one time they went head-to-head at 4CC, Caroline topped Rachel (4th to 5th). But Rachel has had the overall better results. I guess Czisny gets in "A" as the national champ but honestly, I don't feel she deserves it 100%.

2009-10 ISU Grand Prix selection guidelines

Joesitz (RIP)

fairly4

Mathman

PolymerBob

evangeline

feraina

feraina

Joesitz (RIP)

chuckm

Spun Silver

PolymerBob

R.D.

ANW

Mathman

R.D.

Mathman

Mathman

PolymerBob

chuckm

R.D.

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