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Thread: 2009-10 ISU Grand Prix selection guidelines

  1. #316
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sorcerer View Post
    So if "champ's preference" does exist, though I don't know how it is brought to the 6-party-talks (maybe via Lausanne?), Yuna's SA is practically determined, then.
    Here is my opinion (always reserving the right to be wrong, of course. ) about this privilege.

    I think that all the skaters, through their federations, have the opportunity to make their wishes known about where they would like to skate. The world champions get extra consideration compared to the others, because, well, they are the world champions.

    Sometimes it works out that most of the top skaters are happy with their assignments, sometimes skaters are dissapointed. I think there is also a certain amount of "horse trading" that goes on among federations after the draw. If you take my top-ranked ice dance team, I'll invite your up-and-coming guy in the men's field.

    What would really be neat is if all of these meetings were openly reported so we could follow the order of the draw and all the subsequent deals and negotiations. That will never happen, but it would be cool if it did.

    Quote Originally Posted by sorcerer
    I think this will the first time in these 3 years that such preference would get its effect in the ladies field, since Miki and Mao wasn't aware of such privilege, I believe.

    How was it with Kimmie in '06.
    That was an interesting question, so I looked it up.

    If it is really true that "everyone wants to go to Paris," and, if not, Skate America, then the last three ladies' champions did pretty well.

    2006. Kimmie Meissner got Skate America and Trophee Eric Bompard.

    2007. Miki Ando got Skate America and NHK.

    2008. Mao Asada got Eric Bompard and NHK.

    However, sometimes it might be the other way around. Does the top skater want a certain event, or does that event want the top skater?
    Last edited by Mathman; 05-17-2009 at 02:04 PM.

  2. #317
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    ...If it is really true that "everyone wants to go to Paris," and, if not, Skate America...
    (Momjudi, the following is about all disciplines.)

    My guess:
    If the skater/couple has his/her/their programs ready by the time of the GP assignments, then he/she/they would want an early game such as TEB(Paris).
    If the program is expected to delay, then he/she/they would want an late game like SC this year.
    I think the latter must be larger in number, so "?" mark to "everyone wants Paris".

    BTW
    1. Mao has always been wanted by TEB after her sensational debut there, probably more than the other way around.
    2. I've heard somewhere that Miki wants(wanted?) to skate in SC once in her career, the only GP missing in her experience. But this she won't get this year, I suppose.

  3. #318
    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
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    Mao may be wanted by TEB, and YuNa maybe wanted by SA (convenience), but the Order of the Drawer is the important deciding factor in this game.

    If the Podium at Last Worlds has first draw:

    1st Grouping: YuNa, Joannie, Miki will draw 2 places, I believe. What order I do not know. but I believe Joannie will choose SC and Miki will choose NHK. I believe YuNa will want SA becase of Orser. The seond choice can be sticky because the first of the drawers may select an event that the other two want.

    2nd Grouping: The 4-6 will probably know which of the top 3 are already placed in six events, and try their best to avoid the most competition. I think the USFS will choose Rachael, and eliminate Mao from SA, and Laura will want CoR but so much depends on theOrder of the Draw

    The rest of the Field will just continue filling slots in the Event Listings accoridng to theOrder of Draw. (Sasha, of course has a spot for SA and Rachael is automatically in SA.)

    Since Figure Skating tends to be secretive wherever possible, we will not know the results of who drew first, second and third in the Order of Draw

    Once we know who's where in the final Event Listing, we will have much more to say. Remember 26 or better is very secure for the Final. 24 may make some ties, so points earned are also to be considered.

    And remember, Emanuel Sandhu won the Final one year as an Alternate, so it's not over till it's over.

  4. #319
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    Quote Originally Posted by chuckm View Post
    Rachael Flatt and Alissa Czisny are guaranteed two GP events because they finished in the top 12 at Worlds 2009.

    Three other US ladies have more than one guarantee (WR=top 24 ISU World Rank; SB=top 24 Season's Best list; JW=Junior Worlds medalist; JG=JGPF medalist):

    Caroline Zhang: WR=8, SB=7, JW=2
    Ashley Wagner: WR=14, SB=16, JW=3
    Becky Bereswill: SB=23, JG=1

    Zhang and Wagner will almost certainly get two GP events. Bereswill has one more year of Junior eligibility, so it depends on whether she wants to move up to the GP.

    Four US ladies have just one guarantee:
    Mirai Nagasu: WR=21
    Kimmie Meissner: WR=23
    Alexe Gilles: JG=3
    Angela Maxwell: SB=21

    Of these, Gilles and Maxwell may remain in the JGP. Nagasu and Meissner may get one or two GP events.
    Along with the 2009 World Junior pair bronze medalists Castelli/Shnapir (who have aged out), I've heard that Becky Bereswill, Alexe Gilles, JGP Final men's silver medalist Armin Mahbanoozadeh, and the dance teams of Chock/Zuerlein and Hubbell/Hubbell (all of whom are ISU Junior age-eligible in 2009-10) will be the USA "rookie" skaters in the GP draw next weekend and are the ones guaranteed at least 1 assignment each. (Alexander Johnson, who has aged out, is #32 on the Season Best scores list and therefore also eligible to be selected.)

  5. #320
    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
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    Sylvia - Not sure I understand. If C/Z and H/H are still skating Juniors, they are still eligible for 1 Senior GP. Is that correct?

    This Flip Flop between Seniors and Juniors is weird. I would even call it unsportsman like, but then when am I ever correct?

    Can you please tell me what the difference is in Juniors between the ISU and the USFS?

    BTW, Anxiously awaiting the Assignments next weekend.

  6. #321
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joesitz View Post
    If C/Z and H/H are still skating Juniors, they are still eligible for 1 Senior GP. Is that correct?
    C/Z and H/H will be skating senior internationally and nationally. They just happen to be still age-eligible to compete on the JGP and at 2010 Junior Worlds.

    Can you please tell me what the difference is in Juniors between the ISU and the USFS?
    ISU Junior is strictly about age/birthdate. USFS Junior is a skill/test level. Quite a few U.S. skaters competed on the JGP last year and competed senior at 2009 U.S. Nationals (Bereswill, Gilles, Maxwell, Musademba, Rizo, Oi, Victorsen, Halverson, Brewster, Hubbells).
    Last edited by Sylvia; 05-25-2009 at 06:16 PM.

  7. #322
    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
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    Oh well, my gut feeling is once a skaters competes in a Senior event, then that is what level he is at. If his age gives him a choice, well that is up to the skater. This just my opinion.

    btw, Adam Rippon whom I discovered some time ago at MidAtlantics and thought very highly of his skating was one of those flip floppers between Jrs and Srs last season. he won juniors for the second time, and as much as I respect his talent, I was not impressed. If Juniors is a test, I suppose they had to test Adam twice.

    Will the Shibutanis skate both Jrs and Srs?

  8. #323
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joesitz View Post
    btw, Adam Rippon whom I discovered some time ago at MidAtlantics and thought very highly of his skating was one of those flip floppers between Jrs and Srs last season. he won juniors for the second time, and as much as I respect his talent, I was not impressed.
    Not impressed by his 2009 World Juniors performance or not impressed by his return to World Juniors? If the latter, well, this topic been hashed over enough, imo. The bottom line is that all skaters have to try and gain as many ISU ranking points as possible, and Rippon's only option last season post-Nationals was to compete at World Juniors again. I think it was an impressive accomplishment that he skated better in winning his second title and upped his technical ability (i.e., landed two 3A in his FS).

    Will the Shibutanis skate both Jrs and Srs?
    I don't know, but I am assuming they will stay junior nationally.

  9. #324
    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sylvia View Post
    Not impressed by his 2009 World Juniors performance or not impressed by his return to World Juniors? If the latter, well, this topic been hashed over enough, imo. The bottom line is that all skaters have to try and gain as many ISU ranking points as possible, and Rippon's only option last season post-Nationals was to compete at World Juniors again. I think it was an impressive accomplishment that he skated better in winning his second title and upped his technical ability (i.e., landed two 3A in his FS).
    I understand the regulaton of the two levels of figure skating, I just don't think it is fair to give certain skaters the chance to win two GP Finals in the same year.

    When I see the new assignments for the JGPs, I will just think of them as Seniors in Juniors.

  10. #325
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    Adam was in a tough spot. I mean, let's put ourselves in his position. It was Junior Worlds, or a plane ride home. He answered by becomming the first man, of any nationality, to win the title twice.

    On a side note, during this past Nationals, I saw novice pairs skaters with facial hair.

  11. #326
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joesitz View Post
    I understand the regulaton of the two levels of figure skating, I just don't think it is fair to give certain skaters the chance to win two GP Finals in the same year.
    But Rippon didn't have a chance "to win two GP Finals in the same year" because singles and dance teams aren't allowed to compete in the JGP and GP in the same season. As long as ISU rules allow GP skaters to compete at Junior Worlds, it's going to continue happening. Also, to be fair, there are countries that don't have many world-class skaters and so they end up competing on either the JGP or GP, as well as at Europeans/Four Continents, Junior Worlds and/or Worlds (like Kazakhstan's Denis Ten, age 15, this season -- 2 JGPs, 5th at the JGP Final, 9th at Four Continents, 4th at Junior Worlds, 8th at Worlds).

    When I see the new assignments for the JGPs, I will just think of them as Seniors in Juniors.
    Well, quite a few JGP skaters again will be seniors nationally (including many non-USA skaters) but some will be juniors nationally.

    ETA: Speaking of Denis Ten, he is guaranteed 2 Senior Grand Prix assignments for placing in the top 12 at Worlds and so I assume he will make his Sr. GP debut this fall (and he is eligible to compete at Jr. Worlds through 2012!).
    Last edited by Sylvia; 05-25-2009 at 10:32 PM.

  12. #327
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joesitz View Post
    Oh well, my gut feeling is once a skaters competes in a Senior event, then that is what level he is at. If his age gives him a choice, well that is up to the skater. This just my opinion.

    btw, Adam Rippon whom I discovered some time ago at MidAtlantics and thought very highly of his skating was one of those flip floppers between Jrs and Srs last season. he won juniors for the second time, and as much as I respect his talent, I was not impressed. If Juniors is a test, I suppose they had to test Adam twice.
    Wow Joe, we went through this before. You keep saying you discovered Rippon. If you are his Dad, he needs a new Dad. I sent a small amount to three skater’s funds this year in early April. I in fact actually sent Rippon money after JW to his fund. Not only did I get a thank you note with a receipt but he also told me what he was going to use my measly 50 bucks on. Be impressed. The kid did two triple axels, with quality skating in high pressure, that’s senior enough for me.
    I don’t think it is fair to call him a “flip flopper” just because he attended JW two times and happened to win both times. Reynolds the Canadian went four times after competing 2 years on the senior circuit, Chan also went back to JW after competing senior and finished second, on his third trip to JW. Just because they did not win they didn’t flip flop too? The rule is easy, if you are still 18 years old on the last year of June you get to compete as a junior internationally that same year, including JW. What would you have advised Rippon to do this year, stay home get no points, and get no experience as a title defender? What else were his options? Rippon and NO ONE went to the JGP final and the GP final they are separate from JW and WC.
    Regarding “testing” him I think he passed, beating Gregoriev, Amodio, Ten, Oi, and a powerhouse like Brezina who skated Internationally as a senior and put out a clean program with 2 triple axels and no falls, by 17 plus points is passing a great test. I thought you were over this already, you keep saying you “discovered” him. I keep thinking I am glad you did not discover penicillin or infection would be wiping out the planet by now. We Johnny supporters who wanted Johnny to be at Worlds had to accept that Mroz earned his spot. Rippon did not take anyone’s spot at JW he earned it and came up with a score that was in the top ten of the season for ALL skaters including seniors, Martians, Undersea Creatures, etc. Maybe him not “impressing” you with two triple axels, a top ten score, and defending his tile keeps him motivated, a form of tough love from the man who discovered him. Your outrageous “anti Rippon” posts are offensive they even got the neutral posters defending him.

  13. #328
    and... World Peace! Tonichelle's Avatar
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    I agree with Joe on the Jrs. & Seniors thing... either they're one or the other... it seems to me that federations take advantage of the fact that they don't follow the same age rules as the ISU so they can fudge the teams so that they still can claim the most glory in both divisions.

  14. #329
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sinclare View Post
    ...Undersea Creatures...
    I think the lobster got 160.35 for his LP...

    http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/ABP...2003995573.jpg

    Edited to add: I don't think Joe meant any personal insult to Adam. Joe just thinks that once you move up to seniors you should stay there and not go back to junior competitions.
    Last edited by Mathman; 05-26-2009 at 01:21 AM.

  15. #330
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joesitz View Post
    If Juniors is a test, I suppose they had to test Adam twice.
    Junior Worlds isn't a test. It's a world championship for skaters who meet the junior age requirements.

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