Changing The Image Of Men's Figure Skating

i love to skate · May 6, 2009

A little off topic - did anyone else get the email from Skate Canada with the Harley Davidson pictures? I know many people were laughing when they heard about this and thought it was a ridiculous idea but the pictures are amazing! I looked through them and must say they turned out great. Canada has the best looking skaters - WOW! The skaters featured are Cynthia, Joannie, Myriame, Jess and Bryce, and Kaitlyn and Andrew.

Medusa · May 6, 2009

i love to skate said:
Canada has the best looking skaters - WOW! The skaters featured are Cynthia, Joannie, Myriame, Jess and Bryce, and Kaitlyn and Andrew.

Let's put a IMO onto that. (I e.g. would vote for Russia or Japan on that one.)

But I still would like to see those pictures :love:

.

i love to skate · May 6, 2009

Medusa said:
Let's put a IMO onto that. (I e.g. would vote for Russia or Japan on that one.)

Maybe you'll change your mind after you see the pictures :laugh:

I think they will be released over the next year.

Mathman · May 6, 2009

viv said:
They put it on TV on a more or less regular basis. Also, IMO they appreciate the stars they have got and try to give them support.

I think this is what Ballerynna meant when she mentioned the chicken and the egg.

In the U.S., figure skating is not popular because it is hardly ever shown on TV. And it is hardly ever shown on TV because it is not popular.

gkelly said:
http://www.skatecanada.ca/en/news_views/news/2008_2009/may_6.cfm

OK, Captain Grammar here. :laugh:

When ISU communications butcher the Queen's English I usually cut them some slack because the authors are not native speakers. But...can we please not try to make a verb "to message" out of the noun "message?" Or at least can we stop short of then making a new noun "messenging" out of the present participle of the new verb "to message?"

Particle Man · May 6, 2009

evangeline said:
Personally, I think people romanticize 6.0 too much. I suppose we remember all the spectacular, beautiful programs that skaters like Janet Lynn and Michelle Kwan did under 6.0 but people also forget those stroke-jump-stroke-jump programs that were as common and dull as the 'checklist'-type programs today.

And as for scoring, 6.0 can just be as confusing as CoP. Sure, a 6.0 obviously means the program was excellent, and everyone can tell that a program that scored a 5.8, 5.9 was better than one that scored 5.4, 5.2. But isn't it equally easy to tell that a program that scored a 76.03 is better than one that scored 69.24?

That being said, CoP definitely has its flaws. But so did 6.0.

Except the flaws in 6.0 were from the lack of judging oversight, sometimes with judges blatantly ignoring mandatory deductions left and right. Guess what, that still happens! We still have no oversight, and now we have a system which didn't fix any of those flaws, and also introduced its own worse flaws. CoP tries to turn the artistic side of the sport into a set of neatly divided categories and it simply fails. It fails. It's a systemic flaw, it's a completely wrong premise and that can't be tweaked or improved.

If the corrupt ISU had done what it should have done, which was institute serious judging oversight and rule enforcement, actually punish judges and federations who cheat, and continue to tweak 6.0 (remember it had required elements? It wasn't just pulling numbers out of a hat) then that would have been best for the sport. Figure skating, at the very least the artistic side of figure skating, must be judged by fair judges using a subjective scoring system, not anonymous judges using a checklist. There is no equation for artistry.

You think a subjective scoring system is never returning in any fashion, and I'm convinced you're wrong. I'm just ahead of the curve, as always. All it will take is a continued slide down, down, down on the path we are on, declining viewership, declining attendance, perhaps a change in leadership (BYE SPEEDY!!) and perhaps new companies buying rights to things and "encouraging" another major change in the system. It could be 10 years off for all I know, but it will happen. Until then, deal with the whining, because I'm not laying down and accepting a flawed system which is killing the only sport I like.

Mathman · May 6, 2009

Particle Man said:
CoP tries to turn the artistic side of the sport into a set of neatly divided categories and it simply fails. It fails. It's a systemic flaw, it's a completely wrong premise and that can't be tweaked or improved.

This is the strongest of all possible arguments against the IJS. It is just wrong.

enlight78 · May 6, 2009

I think it is very possible to judge artistry objectively base on most catagories given(not all). And most of the flaws that people give about COP is not flaws with the system but flaws based of personal opinions and flaws do to human error forced or unforced. It depends on what you really want. Do you want the artistic score to define the most entertaing program, the most unique program, or the most artistic. Artistry can be define as lines,extensions, balance, flow ,contrasting or matching the music, sychronization and symmatry. Rather not it entertain or move you(which can be affect by bias or cultrual differnce) is not the most important aspect. I believe COP goal was to be a system that give all skaters an equal platform to score or win based on their own performance alone. In that believe it is very successful.All the other problems are really dealing with ISU, feds, judges.

wishmaker · May 6, 2009

Great comment, ENLIGHT78

Joesitz (RIP) · May 6, 2009

DragonPhoenix said:
But a great costume which fits the character and/or story of the program enhances the body language. It does not detract from it in any way. No reason to limit yourself

So what? A good performer is a good performer is a good performer. He doesn't need sequins.

Joesitz (RIP) · May 6, 2009

enlight78 said:
I think it is very possible to judge artistry objectively base on most catagories given(not all). And most of the flaws that people give about COP is not flaws with the system but flaws based of personal opinions and flaws do to human error forced or unforced. It depends on what you really want. Do you want the artistic score to define the most entertaing program, the most unique program, or the most artistic. Artistry can be define as lines,extensions, balance, flow ,contrasting or matching the music, sychronization and symmatry. Rather not it entertain or move you(which can be affect by bias or cultrual differnce) is not the most important aspect. I believe COP goal was to be a system that give all skaters an equal platform to score or win based on their own performance alone. In that believe it is very successful.All the other problems are really dealing with ISU, feds, judges.

Yes, but we are talking about Sport and not Professional Shows. There is a difference. Have your read those directives for PC scores? In your heart, do you really need that? Dealing with those bullets if indeed, they were covered in the scoring versus the old fashioned whole package, I find misleading. To watch a competition without favoritism, one knows who skated the finest That Night! and costumes have nothing to do with it. It's Sport and not Show skating.

I don't know why fans want to kill the sport and savor the pagaent?

Mathman · May 6, 2009

I agree with Joe.

The #1 ISU regulation on costumes is that the costune must be "appropriate for an athletic competition."

Most skating costumes aren't. If the ISU followed its own rules, everyone would get a costume deduction. :yes:

Joesitz (RIP) · May 6, 2009

Mathman said:
I agree with Joe.

The #1 ISU regulation on costumes is that the costune must be "appropriate for an athletic competition."

Most skating costumes aren't. If the ISU followed its own rules, everyone would get a costume deduction. :yes:

Thanks MM, so there is a vague word on costume. Nice to know. We can say his costume was not appropriate.

I just thought, for those who like the Pageant way of judging, maybe the ISU could add 5 questions to be answered by the top 5 finishers after the results of the SP and LP. :yes:

wishmaker · May 6, 2009

Costumes enhance the performer and the performance. Some maybe tacky, some maybe simple, some maybe overdone, and some are really beautiful and brings out the best of a performer and the performance. So, I think it's up to the skater and the choreographer/coach to choose whatever they want, and that's what makes figure skating interesting. The audience may like or not like their costumes/attires but that's the way it is and that's why each skater is unique.

DragonPhoenix · May 6, 2009

Joesitz said:
So what?

So what ? Because I don't want to see everyone wearing the same outfits, like a uniform, everyone the same. We can see that everyday.

How booorrrrrinngggg is that.

I'm not much of a fan of boring.

Joesitz said:
A good performer is a good performer is a good performer. He doesn't need sequins.

Of course a good performer is a good performer. And a great costume makes it even better.

By no means am I saying that all costumes that have been worn are great.

However, a great costume adds alot to a great performance.

The more unique, the more beautiful, the more original, the better.

We'll just have to agree to disagree.

wishmaker · May 6, 2009

Figure skating is not just a sport but is also an art. With sports, you have uniforms to distinguish each competitive groups. With figure skating as an art and a sport, there are different disciplines and the skaters have the right to choose whatever costumes/attires they would desire to wear for their programs. Ice Shows have their whole program with their costumes designed/aimed towards the theme of their show. So, the word "APPROPRIATE" is on the judgment/decision of the figure skater/coach/choreographer and with Ice Shows, the director/choreographer and maybe a costume designer.

Nadine · May 6, 2009

I'm behind Elvis Stojko. He's never been afraid to state what's on his mind. Just like his skating, they are one - bold, risky, upfront, a joy to watch! To this day, his 1994 Olympic LP to Bruce Lee's "Dragon" soundtrack is my all-time favorite Olympic performance by a man; I just got through watching it again last week & cried from pure emotion, especially when he went for & nailed the second triple axel, which he had missed earlier on, and which had Scott saying in reply to Verne Lundquist you have to be great, and Elvis is great!:thumbsup:

OT: regarding costumes, I say "why not"?! I mean if I'm going to a Ball I sure as heck want to look my best. :party2:

Mathman · May 6, 2009

i love to skate said:
A little off topic - did anyone else get the email from Skate Canada with the Harley Davidson pictures? I know many people were laughing when they heard about this and thought it was a ridiculous idea but the pictures are amazing!

Here's the poster Michelle Kwan made once for Maxxis tires. I assume the point was for auto mechanics to tape it to their lockers, right beside Miss February.

http://img477.imageshack.us/img477/6155/item153204wm.jpg

hongligl · May 6, 2009

I for one am totally for costumes. I don't think that I would like figure skating without the costumes. Watching practices without costumes, and you know what I mean. That being said, I prefer elegant costumes to overly flamboyant ones in general. There is no clear cut when it's just enough when it's too much, all depending on if it is appropriate to the music. Uniform for figure skating is a big NO NO for me for sure. Elvis and Sandu were two extremes that out of my range of prefered male skaters' spectrum for different reasons

Bring on the quads, 4/3 3A for man to show the competitive side of the sport, not plain costumes or worse, uniforms. JMHO

I do want to see 3/3 for girls, quads and 3As for man!!! No matter how well executed, a 3/2 is still a 3/2 .

wishmaker · May 6, 2009

And may I add, the costumes/attires of the figure skater is just a part of how they deliver their programs, which may be elaborate, simple, overdone, exquisite, and whatever the skater would desire but doesn't make figure skating less macho or more macho ; or gives the right of any one to say how/what the figure skater should do with his/her program. Of course, the costumes are not rated because it is there to enhance the program, and the core of judging is with the technicalities,choreography,etc.

i love to skate · May 6, 2009

Mathman said:
Here's the poster Michelle Kwan made once for Maxxis tires. I assume the point was for auto mechanics to tape it to their lockers, right beside Miss February.

http://img477.imageshack.us/img477/6155/item153204wm.jpg

Yes the Skate Canada pictures are quite pin up worthy! The girls look flat out hot...Cynthia and Jessica look quite "modely" :thumbsup:

Changing The Image Of Men's Figure Skating

i love to skate

Medusa

i love to skate

Mathman

Particle Man

Match Penalty

Mathman

enlight78

wishmaker

Joesitz (RIP)

Joesitz (RIP)

Mathman

Joesitz (RIP)

wishmaker

DragonPhoenix

wishmaker

Nadine

Mathman

hongligl

wishmaker

i love to skate

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