Changing The Image Of Men's Figure Skating | Page 5 | Golden Skate

Changing The Image Of Men's Figure Skating

Medusa

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 6, 2007
No. It is animal torture.
I was totally waiting for someone to say that. I don't want to comment any further on the right of this traditional Spanish/Portuguese sport to exist, every country / culture thinks that their traditions are the most precious ones (like gun-ownership in the US, or, well, bullfighting in Spain). But e.g. in France there are harmless variations of the sport, where the bulls don't get hurt (often there is some kind of rosette that has to be taken from the bull and that's it - the young men get hurt sometimes though). I watched one of those spectacles in Nîmes (in this arena) and it looked like a lot of fun and after the fête is over, the bulls are taken back to the Camargue to continue their relative free life.
 

seniorita

Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 3, 2008
i have watched something similar to the thing you described (or it is the same, I m not sure) in V. Boucau as a part of a tourist attraction and thought the animals were still tortured, they just dont die...
 

icedancingnut31

On the Ice
Joined
Dec 31, 2003
Does it really matter whether people are gay or not? If it does, this isn't the sport for you!

No it does not. But whenever I tell people I love watching men's skating they always tell me all of the men are gay. It kind of bothers me that some people cannot look deeper in to the sport and all they focus on is a male skater's sexuality
 

seniorita

Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 3, 2008
gay comments are always there - it becomes boring- when there is some connection to dance and music, like modern dance or ballet or something. It goes the same for every sport that doesnt include kicking and spitting..
it bothers me the same that my male friends watch skating with me just because the girls wear short dresses. :cool:
 

wishmaker

Rinkside
Joined
Apr 4, 2009
PAIRSSKATER of FSUniverse did clarify things with the response of Mr. Thompson. Elvis has way done too much downgrading and too much insulting to figure skating and the figure skaters. He was bitter while he was still skating and much more bitter now because the current figure skaters have been very versatile and resilient with all the demanded changes/rulings required for competitions showing that figure skating is an art and a sport at the same time and they are amazing.
 

kyla2

Final Flight
Joined
Jan 24, 2004
You Are All Missing The Point

You are all missing the point. The discussion about whether they should make figure skating more "masculine" originated from a discussion in Canada about declining viewership. The media turned it into a lightening rod issue, but that's not where the conversation started. So let's address the real issue-declining viewership. It has nothing to do with the costumes. It has nothing to do with being gay or straight. It has EVERYTHING to do with how skating has evolved. Technically it is more demanding, right? More athletic right? But skating is still losing viewers in Canada, America and many other places. It's about the direction this sport has taken in terms of scoring and program requirements. They have interfered with the beauty and flow of the programs and people have lost interest. A bigger factor is that the general public cannot follow the scoring. DO NOT bother to tell me that it isn't that hard to understand. For the PAYING PUBLIC it is. That's all you need to know. If they can't follow it or participate in it, it's over. Another issue is that there is no female figure skater people are connecting to, including Yu Na Kim. The loss of Michelle Kwan had an enormous impact on the sport. It devastated it. She connected with the public in a way that is unprecedented, and I am including Peggy Fleming and Sonia Henie in that statement. The current Asian skaters don't have the emotional connection to the American public. They are more within themselves, unlike Michelle who was out there in full force with her incredibly appealing personality. Ditto Elvis. A strong personality who carried skating in Canada on his back for many years. So unless we straighten the sport out from top to bottom and find another Michelle Kwan, this sport is on a downward spiral, outside of Korea and Japan.
 

Particle Man

Match Penalty
Joined
Mar 23, 2008
kyla2 -- couldn't have said it better myself. You saved me a lot of typing. :rofl:

Skating is dying in North America because they destroyed the scoring system and also lost their stars... and they blame sequin costumes. Yeah, we're in trouble.
 

MissIzzy

Final Flight
Joined
Dec 26, 2006
But Skate Canada can't do anything about the scoring system, and even if they could, they're probably thinking about how it benefited their skaters. And the accusations of judicial corruption and the actions of the ISU fueling those accusations, it seems, Skate Canada really can't do anything about.
I think they're in denial that they're kind of helpless right now. This is something they can do, so they're doing it.
 

Particle Man

Match Penalty
Joined
Mar 23, 2008
Except this makes no sense, as kyla clearly explained. CoP has already ramped up the technical elements and diminished the artistic side -- and what is the result? Lost viewership, falling attendance. Talk about doing the wrong thing. And costumes? If they're all in black boring costumes or uniforms, how will that raise attendance? It won't. Hockey and beer monkeys aren't going to watch figure skating. They need to get real, fast.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
^ Fans of the CoP claim that the new judging system has improved the sport. The president of the Canadian federation (in his email posted on FSU) mentions that now we are seeing level four spins and step sequences, whereas the great skaters of the past only did level ones.

Ottavio Cinquanta was quoted recently as saying," the new judging system has improved the product. If the public doesn't like the new product, what can we do? We (the ISU) are not a marketing organization."
 

Tonichelle

Idita-Rock-n-Roll
Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 27, 2003
I don't see any more OR less artistry in men's skating (or ladies for that matter)... the only disipline that is still struggling to find a happy medium, IMHO, is pairs.
 

i love to skate

Medalist
Joined
Dec 13, 2005
Except this makes no sense, as kyla clearly explained. CoP has already ramped up the technical elements and diminished the artistic side -- and what is the result? Lost viewership, falling attendance. Talk about doing the wrong thing. And costumes? If they're all in black boring costumes or uniforms, how will that raise attendance? It won't. Hockey and beer monkeys aren't going to watch figure skating. They need to get real, fast.

I don't think COP can be solely blamed for the decrease in viewership. Skating was bound to take a decline after the over saturation the public received in the late 1990's. I think the biggest factor that lead to people turning away from figure skating was the judging during SLC. I know many people stopped watching the sport because of this as they got tired of all the judging scandals and controversies. It seemed to many that taking skating seriously wasn't possible anymore due to the high profile incidents involving judges -the foot taping incident at Worlds among them. A change was inevitable and necessary.
 

Particle Man

Match Penalty
Joined
Mar 23, 2008
Ottavio Cinquanta was quoted recently as saying," the new judging system has improved the product. If the public doesn't like the new product, what can we do? We (the ISU) are not a marketing organization."

Oh, speedy. Pass that buck baby, pass it hard.
 

NatachaHatawa

Final Flight
Joined
Feb 4, 2008
Ottavio Cinquanta was quoted recently as saying," the new judging system has improved the product. If the public doesn't like the new product, what can we do? We (the ISU) are not a marketing organization."

That's funny, because I'm under the impression that the whole CoP is a marketing stunt, just to make the whole world believe that figure skating is clear of controversial judging, which it isn't (just look at how many of us tend to disagree with the judges!).

I personnaly belive that the CoP is the problem. As Elvis said, under the old system skating was a show, there was real suspense, skaters used to fight like mad on the ice, now competitions are just recitals. More over, the way artistry is graded doesn't encourage skaters to push their talent to the limit.
 

Tonichelle

Idita-Rock-n-Roll
Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 27, 2003
that Elvis even dares to complain about a skating system because it's too much like a recital is a joke in and of itself. but that's JMHO.

as for the decline... ratings were going down well before CoP... pro fans were blaming MK for staying in too long and making some pretty negative comments about pro skating (basically saying it wasn't for her, just hasbeens IIRC... paraphrasing, certainly). Then it was the pairs scandal in SLC... whether you call it a scandal or not. The world media tore that one apart... took sides... blah blah blah... then the CoP - which I think the real reason it doesn't fare well is not so much that it doesn't work but because most of the average joes don't understand it and don't care to learn it so they just turn it off. Surprisingly even with all the math I get it a whole lot more now than I did with stupid ordinals. Other than the fact that I understood that it was a sytem of favorites... and waiting your turn... and having the right coach... and the right country... certainly don't miss that crap.
 

Particle Man

Match Penalty
Joined
Mar 23, 2008
then the CoP - which I think the real reason it doesn't fare well is not so much that it doesn't work but because most of the average joes don't understand it and don't care to learn it so they just turn it off.

I dabble with Fermat's Last Theorem and models of the universe in my spare time, and even I don't like CoP. I think you expect too much of average people. Why should everyone have to be a mathematician to understand what is happening -- that's ridiculous. You and speedy and all the CoP supporters can whine all you want and it won't change a thing. People don't like your system, they don't understand it, and it's killing the sport.
 

Buttercup

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 25, 2008
Another issue is that there is no female figure skater people are connecting to, including Yu Na Kim. The loss of Michelle Kwan had an enormous impact on the sport. It devastated it. She connected with the public in a way that is unprecedented, and I am including Peggy Fleming and Sonia Henie in that statement. The current Asian skaters don't have the emotional connection to the American public. They are more within themselves, unlike Michelle who was out there in full force with her incredibly appealing personality.
I think there's a tendency to write "skating is dying" when a more accurate statement would be what you just wrote: "Americans don't have much interest in the current ladies skaters". I can tell you that for me (heresy alert!) Michelle Kwan never had the wow factor that so many people see in her. She was a very good and graceful skater, but there were others I enjoyed more. Without comparing them to MK, I feel both Yu-Na and Mao have plenty of personality and know how to connect with the audience. But I agree that so long as the general public in the US doesn't have a pretty and successful ice princess to get behind, skating will be in trouble there.

I dabble with Fermat's Last Theorem and models of the universe in my spare time, and even I don't like CoP. I think you expect too much of average people. Why should everyone have to be a mathematician to understand what is happening -- that's ridiculous.
Math and I went our separate ways when they took away the numbers and gave me letters to work with instead :scowl:. But one doesn't need to be a mathematician to understand the IJS; all you need is to get basic arithmetic. Like Toni, I have a much easier time with this system than with ordinals, which could get very confusing, and rewarded established favorites to a greater extent than IJS. It' easier now to be judged on the merits, at least when it comes to TES.

Another thing that's needed is for whoever is broadcasting and the journalists covering the sport to actually address what's going on rather than whine endlessly about the eeeevil scoring system and the eeeevil judges. If there's something that doesn't make sense, like, say, Denis Ten's marks at the Worlds SP, by all means - say so on the air. But the repetitive complaints about how hard it is to understand the system aren't doing anyone any good. I think anyone watching Eurosport knows what's happening and what the scores mean. For that matter, anyone watchign the skaters' reactions can tell what the scores mean.

That having been said, there are problems with the current system that do need to be sorted out. Most importantly, I feel it's not rewarding risk-taking, innovation and creativity properly; it's rewarding checklist skating, and I agree - that's dull. The skaters know exactly what they need to do to get high levels (e.g. all the ice dancers doing the same lift because it's not that hard but gets a high level). So the artistic integrity of the programs is often compromised, because what you need for a level 4 isn't always what the program needs to be coherent, appealing and meaningful.
 

Particle Man

Match Penalty
Joined
Mar 23, 2008
Another thing that's needed is for whoever is broadcasting and the journalists covering the sport to actually address what's going on rather than whine endlessly about the eeeevil scoring system and the eeeevil judges...

...That having been said, there are problems with the current system that do need to be sorted out. Most importantly, I feel it's not rewarding risk-taking, innovation and creativity properly; it's rewarding checklist skating, and I agree - that's dull. The skaters know exactly what they need to do to get high levels (e.g. all the ice dancers doing the same lift because it's not that hard but gets a high level). So the artistic integrity of the programs is often compromised, because what you need for a level 4 isn't always what the program needs to be coherent, appealing and meaningful.

You agree there are problems, so where should those problems be addressed? Oh, during the broadcast, since 95% of the viewers will only pay attention to it during the broadcast.

6 years? so far of CoP, and we still have "checklist skating." Why? Because that's what CoP is, inherently. CoP is the pig and you are debating colors of lipstick...
 

Buttercup

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 25, 2008
You agree there are problems, so where should those problems be addressed? Oh, during the broadcast, since 95% of the viewers will only pay attention to it during the broadcast.

6 years? so far of CoP, and we still have "checklist skating." Why? Because that's what CoP is, inherently. CoP is the pig and you are debating colors of lipstick...
The lipstick/pig thing is lame. That's one expression that really needs to go away.

Now, you took two separate points in my post and misrepresented my argument. So let's clarify: the broadcasters should explain what going on for the benefit of the audience. For instance, "look how Patrick is using his upper body in that step sequence, that should help him get the level up". Or mention that Miki may have URed a jump, so it'll get marked as a bad double (if I had a dollar for every time I heard the "bad double" bit on Eurosport, I could buy lots of lipstick). It's really not that hard to do; Chris Howarth does a great job over on Eurosport (and he doesn't chatter endlessly, another plus), and I know from Medusa that the German ES commentators are really good at spotting URs.

The ISU needs to look at the IJS, which I've heard they may do after Olys and see, based on the six full seasons it will have been used at that point, what's working and what isn't, and make changes accordingly. For instance - allow more ways to get high levels on step sequences. I believe the system needs work, but it doesn't need to be completely discarded. And it won't be, so all this yearning for 6.0 is pointless.
 
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