Changing The Image Of Men's Figure Skating | Page 8 | Golden Skate

Changing The Image Of Men's Figure Skating

kyla2

Final Flight
Joined
Jan 24, 2004
Particle Man; Skating and Chess

Excellent posts about artistry etc. You are absolutely right. To try to quantify artistry is the height of absurdity. What people in figure skating, and around figure skating forget, is that it is the general public that pays for the sport and they have to be able to understand it. For those of you who feel the 6.0 system was more difficult to grasp, well I don't know quite what to say, except that we must not live on the same planet. For the person that said the announcers should state why the skater is being given a higher "level" as they do a lift etc., you have made my point for me. The general public wants a simpler system. They don't want to have to factor in a "level," which is a nebulous thing to them and has no meaning unless they get the rule book out. This isn't chess, which is a viewer sport only to those who play chess. But it will become like chess, if we continue down this road. As for those who think skating was on a decline before CoP, there is no comaprison to what we are seeing now. When you can't get a network anywhere to carry major skating competitions, it's because it isn't profitable, and that is because there is limited viewership. Sponsors won't pay to support a sport in decline.The reason skating is popular in Korea and Japan is because of two people-Yu Na Kim and Mao Asada. It's the thrill of a rivalry bewtween two great skaters. They are lovely girls but they do not connect with American audiences like Michelle did or even Irina Slutskaya.
 

evangeline

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 7, 2007
I think it is very possible to judge artistry objectively base on most catagories given(not all). And most of the flaws that people give about COP is not flaws with the system but flaws based of personal opinions and flaws do to human error forced or unforced. It depends on what you really want. Do you want the artistic score to define the most entertaing program, the most unique program, or the most artistic. Artistry can be define as lines,extensions, balance, flow ,contrasting or matching the music, sychronization and symmatry. Rather not it entertain or move you(which can be affect by bias or cultrual differnce) is not the most important aspect. I believe COP goal was to be a system that give all skaters an equal platform to score or win based on their own performance alone. In that believe it is very successful.All the other problems are really dealing with ISU, feds, judges.

I completely agree.

I don't know why people are blaming CoP for the decline for skating's popularity in the US. After all, the complicated system hasn't deterred skating's popularity in Japan and Korea at all.

Instead, the culprit for skating's unpopularity in the US (as other people have pointed out) is probably the lack of a dominant, instantly recognizable skating star like Michelle Kwan. Look how the success of Yu-Na Kim has made skating an immensely popular sport in Korea. Or maybe a scandal will do the trick.
But unless we get Michelle Kwan 2.0 or have Rachael Flatt go bonkers and has her best friend club Caroline Zhang's knee, I don't think skating will be popular even if 6.0 is magically reinstated.

But feel free to complain about CoP if you want! I myself hate the anonymous judging, the fact that skating skills is in the PCS score, etc. But I don't see the point of yearning for 6.0.
 

antmanb

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 5, 2004
I don't know why fans want to kill the sport and savor the pagaent?

In your opinion it's "the pageant" to the majority of people the costumes are part of the presentation, you don't agree, not much more can be said.

Why do you want to kill the performance aspect of skating and make it a barrell jumping contest?

Ant
 
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snowflake

I enjoy what I like
Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 10, 2008
When you can't get a network anywhere to carry major skating competitions, it's because it isn't profitable, and that is because there is limited viewership. Sponsors won't pay to support a sport in decline.The reason skating is popular in Korea and Japan is because of two people-Yu Na Kim and Mao Asada. It's the thrill of a rivalry bewtween two great skaters. They are lovely girls but they do not connect with American audiences like Michelle did or even Irina Slutskaya.

Why is the sport in decline because US doesn't have female stars anymore?

Eurosport showed all GP-events last autumn for the first time. With competent commentators. Why, if they didn't think the sport is popular?
 

skatingbc

Final Flight
Joined
Jan 2, 2009
For those of you who feel the 6.0 system was more difficult to grasp, well I don't know quite what to say, except that we must not live on the same planet. For the person that said the announcers should state why the skater is being given a higher "level" as they do a lift etc., you have made my point for me. The general public wants a simpler system. They don't want to have to factor in a "level," which is a nebulous thing to them and has no meaning unless they get the rule book out.

Good commentators do a fantastic job at attempting to make the judging system easier to understand. To be honest, under 6.0, I found it hard sometimes to see why someone was given a 5.9 over a 5.7, etc. Commentators are there to comment on the performance and often on the score as well. They did this under 6.0 too, so I don't understand why this would be part of a anti-CoP argument. At first, it can be difficult to understand the scoring and see a good score vs a bad score. But it all it takes is one event to see what a high score is and what a low score is. The commentators are there to help you understand why. If they say "Skater A's spins were given a higher level or higher difficulty, than Skater B's spins", I don't understand why that's a bad thing.

ETA: It depends what broadcasts you're watching though. If you are watching Dick and Peggy, than I can understand why you would be frustrated with the commentating. Having listened to Eurosport through the past season, I've been a bit lucky. They do a fantastic job at trying to convey the intriacies of CoP to their viewers.
 
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antmanb

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 5, 2004
Good commentators do a fantastic job at attempting to make the judging system easier to understand. To be honest, under 6.0, I found it hard sometimes to see why someone was given a 5.9 over a 5.7, etc. Commentators are there to comment on the performance and often on the score as well. They did this under 6.0 too, so I don't understand why this would be part of a anti-CoP argument. At first, it can be difficult to understand the scoring and see a good score vs a bad score. But it all it takes is one event to see what a high score is and what a low score is. The commentators are there to help you understand why. If they say "Skater A's spins were given a higher level or higher difficulty, than Skater B's spins", I don't understand why that's a bad thing.

ETA: It depends what broadcasts you're watching though. If you are watching Dick and Peggy, than I can understand why you would be frustrated with the commentating. Having listened to Eurosport through the past season, I've been a bit lucky. They do a fantastic job at trying to convey the intriacies of CoP to their viewers.

I agree with this but i would caveat that the British Eurosport commentators are excellent when they are in the arena at championships and have access to the protocols immediately and can say with certainty that a skater received level X for their spins or steps, or that jump A was downgraded.

During the GP season they were having to speculate and were left scratching their heads at times (like Meissner's SP at TEB) and advising people to look up the protocols on the ISU site.

The main issue, IMO, comes when the commentators are well informed and you do trust their judgment and they are left questioning the result (like the British eurosport commentators discussing the ladies SP at worlds).

Ant
 

viv

On the Ice
Joined
Feb 3, 2009
Well, the costume question is a tricky one for me - I'm all for sequins and all against frills (for ladies and men), but that's my personal taste.

I always thought that I would like very very simple costumes, but seeing V&M at Worlds this year I immediately realized that it doesn't work.
My first thought was, suitcase with costumes got lost on flight, they skate in their training stuff. My second thought was, had somebody died?? The whole thing looked kind of dead to me, and it certainly downtoned the presentation of the program. Yes, I know the presentation is not about costumes, but anyway, it didn't work. (And if they really had to skate in all black, why the heck didn't she use boot covers? Her white boots with that black costume topped the sloppyness and training-like looks of the costume for me.)

Same, but not that bad with Kozuka.
 
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Joined
Jun 21, 2003
^ According to I_love_to_skate (post #122) in this thread, the pictures have been sent out by email to subscribers to Skate Canada's publicity services. Evidently (like the pictures of Miss California) the plan is to publish them one by one as part of an advertising campaign for the Olympics.

I guess they are like the pictures you see in hot rod magazines, with beautiful ladies draped over Harleys. :agree:
 

dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Country
United-States
I always thought that I would like very very simple costumes, but seeing V&M at Worlds this year I immediately realized that it doesn't work. ... (And if they really had to skate in all black, why the heck didn't she use boot covers?...

I agree.

The strangest thing was the way her white boot appeared to be growing out his head in the pair spin. I don't know quite why, but it struck me as odd, odd, odd.

And I had thought they were supposed to be 60's/70's hippie kids in the program...so the black was ever stranger. The new costumes seem to want to be used for Memorial or some other sombre type music rather than Pink Floyd.

I liked the old costumes much better.

It should be noted, however, that the costumes did not seem to affect their scores. Which is a good thing, I think.
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
But if every couple were to wear the same costume, would it hurt the results? The question is which is more important, the competition or the fashion fans?
 

i love to skate

Medalist
Joined
Dec 13, 2005
There are apparently some pictures of the Canadian skaters that nobody seems to be able to locate right at the moment. :eek:hwell:

Skate Canada sent out the pictures and some behind the scenes shots to Skate Canada members and from what I gather they will be released to the public over the next year!
 

DragonPhoenix

On the Ice
Joined
Dec 12, 2007
But if every couple were to wear the same costume, would it hurt the results? The question is which is more important, the competition or the fashion fans?


Why not have both ? Again, why you are you so eager to limit the expression of figure skaters ?

It's not a question of which is more important.

It doesn't have to be one or the other.


What you would end up doing is limiting a form of artistic expression.

I say, have both. It's more fun.
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
Why not have both ? Again, why you are you so eager to limit the expression of figure skaters ?
Simply because I am hoping Figure Skating gets into the mainstream of Sports and not Fashion.

If Figure Skating fans want Fashion as an adjunct to the Sport, so be it. I'm just rendering my view that the Sport is the thing, not the fashion thing which I believe gets in the way of mainstream newsmen. It tends to make Figure Skating a girly sport as well as a teenybopper sport - not like Liberty or LPG which have the respect of news media.

But, I just wont accept men wearing sequins, and rhinestones in a sport. But hey, it's ok in a show.
 

ballerynna

Rinkside
Joined
Nov 9, 2008
They put it on TV on a more or less regular basis. Also, IMO they appreciate the stars they have got and try to give them support.

But for me the most important fact is that events are televised.

I agree that showing skating on TV helps but how do we get from Skater A on TV to say Yu-Na Kim? I mean, the way it is in the US, networks have to know who's popular enough to show on TV but how do these skaters become popular enough to actually be shown?

Japan and Korea must've been really promoting their skaters in other media just to get the general public to love their skaters and get them to their level of popularity. Or is it more because they keep winning?
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
I agree that showing skating on TV helps but how do we get from Skater A on TV to say Yu-Na Kim? I mean, the way it is in the US, networks have to know who's popular enough to show on TV but how do these skaters become popular enough to actually be shown?

Japan and Korea must've been really promoting their skaters in other media just to get the general public to love their skaters and get them to their level of popularity. Or is it more because they keep winning?
Japan and Korea, from what I read, really promote the sport on TV, but do they discuss the fashions?

We know about us networks which will only play up money making (read sponsors) to show on TV. Those top skating people are not Stars in the eyes of the public unless there is something out of the ordinary and non skating related.
Tonya Harding had her fifteen minutes.
 

Shangrila

Spectator
Joined
Nov 12, 2008
Simply because I am hoping Figure Skating gets into the mainstream of Sports and not Fashion.

If Figure Skating fans want Fashion as an adjunct to the Sport, so be it. I'm just rendering my view that the Sport is the thing, not the fashion thing which I believe gets in the way of mainstream newsmen. It tends to make Figure Skating a girly sport as well as a teenybopper sport - not like Liberty or LPG which have the respect of news media.

But, I just wont accept men wearing sequins, and rhinestones in a sport. But hey, it's ok in a show.

That is a cultural issue. Not a figure skating issue.

Worrying about whether something is girly or not, and
worrying about which is more masculine or more feminine is immature IMO.

As if femininity in a man or in a woman is a plague or something. Completely ridiculous IMO

I think in Russia they don't have such a problem with this issue. Or at least, less of a problem with it.

And although this thread is about Men's Figure Skating, I would hate for them to start limiting Ladies costumes as well.
 

jennylovskt

Medalist
Joined
Oct 20, 2006
Simply because I am hoping Figure Skating gets into the mainstream of Sports and not Fashion.

If Figure Skating fans want Fashion as an adjunct to the Sport, so be it. I'm just rendering my view that the Sport is the thing, not the fashion thing which I believe gets in the way of mainstream newsmen. It tends to make Figure Skating a girly sport as well as a teenybopper sport - not like Liberty or LPG which have the respect of news media.

But, I just wont accept men wearing sequins, and rhinestones in a sport. But hey, it's ok in a show.

Figure skating will never get into the mainstream of sports because the majority of the men and women do not care about the artistic side of this sport. If we limit the artistic perspect of figure skating, it won't be called figure skating. I am all for "figure skating the sport", not "figure skating the fashion", but this unique sport has the precious artistic beauty that needs costume to perfect it. Sequins are not necessary. There really is no clear cut how much is too much. It's a matter of an individual taste. For example, Johnny Weir's 2007-08 LP costume was disgusting to me because it's too feminine. I like Plushenko's 2003 "St.Petersburg 300" costume and Lysacek's 2004 SP bull-fighter costume.

If any one wants to change men's figure skating to more masculine sport, emphasize the quad jumps should be the way. Even though, I believe, to tune down the costumes and emphasize the quad jumps won't do much for bringing back more audience, especially in the countries like US, Canada where everyone is so sensitive about gay issues. I believe there are not many gay issues in Japan, Korea, and China. So the men over there would, and could express more freely about their soft, artistic side.

Isn't that a bi-product of the freedom? So widely and constantly talk about gay rights and gay issues. People who are not gays are afraid of being mistakenly thought they are. So they have to hide their soft side in order to fit the public description of a man.
 
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