Changing The Image Of Men's Figure Skating

pippa · May 21, 2009

Spun Silver said:
This isn't aimed at you personally, but every time I hear a call for middle ground I think of one of my favorite quotes: "Nothing in excess is excessive nothingness." (A. R. Ammons, "The Golden Mean")

Why oh why would the figure skating world not have room for both Elvis and Johnny? Both types have won many medals so it would appear that both can skate. Settled!

Who skates best, that's all that matters to me. And what they wear is of ... what comes after tertiary? ... interest to me. Except that I always think Johnny is beautiful.

Really well said, Spun Silver! :rock:

I never understand those who talk about how individual personalities in figure skating should be squashed so we can acheive a more bland, homogenous "middle ground". No other sport seems as obsessed with having all of its athletes adhere to a pre-approved "personality model", and I always feel like that kind of 1950s thinking really hurts the sport.

Why in the world shouldn't Johnny Weir feel free to be his exuberant, flamboyant self? For that matter, why shouldn't Elvis and his ilk feel free to express themselves the way they want to? Both Johnny and Elvis have huge fan bases, so apparently their personalities are not chasing off fans - heck, they only appear to make them more interesting. And their personalities haven't stopped either of them from being talented skaters. What's the problem?

Why cant figure skating have all kinds of personalities? Other sports do. I have no interest in skaters acting a certain way because they feel it is the approved "middle ground" - I'm much more interested in seeing who they really are.

Also, I have to disagree with Joe's assertion that female fans don't respond to men's skating as a sport and are just enamored with sparkly costumes. As a longtime female fan of the sport (and most of the fans of this sport are indeed female), I can assure you what these men - and women - do athletically takes my breath away. I couldn't care less about their costumes (although I think they should feel free to dress however they want); they are competitive athletes and it is an exciting sport! (And by the way, if your American Idol example was true and " America says it does not want fem men in anything", well then, Adam Lambert would not have made it all the way to the final two - tens of millions of people voted for him).

Mathman · May 21, 2009

Thanks for joining us, Pippa. Welcome to the forum. :agree:

pippa · May 21, 2009

Mathman said:
Thanks for joining us, Pippa. Welcome to the forum. :agree:

Thank you! :biggrin:

Joesitz (RIP) · May 21, 2009

Audrey19 said:
:scratch: Do you really think so? Generally on this forum I get the impression that many women are very interested in the athletic side of figure skating.
Personally I could care less about the costume, except if it's either very beautiful or very ugly. It's the skating that really interests me, the costume is second-rate. What's the use of a fashionable, glitzy costume if the skating is boring?
For instance, I really loved Patrick Chan this season, but I can't really say if I liked his costumes for both the short and the long and if they were glitzy or not.

Yes, many women in this forum are interested in the athletic side of skating but many more give a cursory look at the Mens Division. It's not that interesting for them from what I read between the lines. My arguments against Glitzy costumes is just that it takes away from a serious Sport. I'm just giving my views in support of Stoyko. Maybe Figure Skating is not meant to be a serious sport. I dunno.

Medusa · May 21, 2009

Joesitz said:
Yes, many women in this forum are interested in the athletic side of skating but many more give a cursory look at the Mens Division. It's not that interesting for them from what I read between the lines. My arguments against Glitzy costumes is just that it takes away from a serious Sport. I'm just giving my views in support of Stoyko. Maybe Figure Skating is not meant to be a serious sport. I dunno.

After defending the Glitzy costumes for a long time, as individual expression, art and actually enjoying the pretty stuff, on men as well as on women - I had a change of mind.

What happened? I was just forced by my study buddies to sit through the finale of "Germany's next Topmodel". A life-changing and traumatising experience. And suddenly I have to agree :eek:

with Joe. In order to be different from beauty pageants, horror TV shows like Next Topmodel or Idol, I think it could be essential to take out the Glitz and Glamour. Because this TV-show I just saw had lots of similarities to several figure skating discussions: "Is she moving sexy and feminine? How does her hair look? That's so not her colour! Eek, too much make-up. Oh, what's with the short skirt?"

Is that really figure skating? A bunch of chicks (and some men) getting their knickers in a twist over bad fashion choices? Just read what we (me included) wrote about in some threads, endless discussions about Flatt's hairstyle, make-up and costumes. If we make the costumes simple (uni-coloured, no jewellery - short dress for ladies, trousers and shirt for men), we would take out the Next Topmodel factor. And that might be a good thing.

Example for tasteful costumes: these of the Boston Ballet for Sacre du Printemps, very simple but still with style.

Mathman · May 21, 2009

I agree with Joe and the new Medusa about costumes. When the audience files out of the arena, the buzz should be about the great athletic performances they just saw. Not what someone had on.

Take the focus off who is masculine or feminine, gay or straight, and put it on the athletic contest.

By the way, I do not think of Irina Slutskaya, Alena Leonova :love:

or Yoshie Onda as skaters with a “masculine” style. Every athletic endeavor requires strength and vigor. (Ballet dancing, too.)

Spun Silver · May 22, 2009

Ok, so we start with skaters in Maoist uniforms (designed by Donna Karan). Next, we get rid of the music (which the "glitzy" costumes attempted to express) because what serious sport has music? Third, we get rid of any possible extraneous narrative reference - swan flutters, phantasmal Carmenesque castanets, hand movements that remind us of geishas, or brushing snow, tragic facial expressions a la Juliet or Cavaradossi (Tosca) or even any generic pair of lovers.

Next, we start acknowledging the problems with all the past programs that we once (silly us) thought were masterpieces thanks in part to their music, costumes, and expressiveness.

Then we say good bye to all the old fans because they loved those reactionary aspects of the sport.

Finally, we reach the Promised Land of figure skating as the OBJECTIVE SPORT it was always meant to be! Hello, Brave New World!

Mathman · May 22, 2009

Here is the perfect compromise between effortless athleticism and eye-popping artistry. If she had come out wearing rhinestone garters and with feathers sticking out of her head, that would only have taken away from the effect of the program.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H_BMmCtve30

Stefane Lambiel gave several ourstanding performances of his Four Seasons. What do we remember about them? He had on a funny-looking shirt.

What do we remember most about Johnny Weir's "Swan?" The exquisite program, or that fact that he wore a bird costume complete with hand-puppet beak?

The costumes should not be the most memorable thing about a skating competition, in my opinion.

Tonichelle · May 22, 2009

actually all I remember from Johnny's swan program was the glove was named "Camille"

that and I had a pair of red gloves at US nationals that year and one of my friends STOLE them so she could have her own "Camille" :laugh:

(she also stole my sunglasses because they were similar to his... and then I think he commented on them when she met him... they were Johnny-fied so I let her have them ha ha!)

dancingqueen · May 22, 2009

Mathman said:
Here is the perfect compromise between effortless athleticism and eye-popping artistry. If she had come out wearing rhinestone garters and with feathers sticking out of her head, that would only have taken away from the effect of the program.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H_BMmCtve30

Stefane Lambiel gave several ourstanding performances of his Four Seasons. What do we remember about them? He had on a funny-looking shirt.

What do we remember most about Johnny Weir's "Swan?" The exquisite program, or that fact that he wore a bird costume complete with hand-puppet beak?

The costumes should not be the most memorable thing about a skating competition, in my opinion.

Really ?

I remember every movement and expression Lambiel did in his Four Seasons and also Johnny did in his Swan.

The biggest things I remember for Johnny's Swan in last Olympics was his breathtaking 3A, For his Nationals Swan 2006, every movement and expression.

For Lambiel's Four Seasons at worlds 2006, his facial expression in the middle of the program, and his arms and hand movements, and his final spin.

Maybe how people are watching the programs is what makes the difference.

seniorita · May 22, 2009

It seems people focus on single and pair skating, cause ice dance has feathers and too much of everything on a single costume but somehow everything looks ok?
Maybe fabrics in combination with colors can be an issue sometimes,this year Aliona's/Robin costumes in sp made me want to kill myself and I couldnt enjoy the program even if the costumes were relevant to their music. Antiglamour is also an issue,simple is beautiful but when Ponsero took the ice in Euros I though he lost his costume and skated the sp in pyjamas, when he started skating it looked normal but not elegant, it took away from his performance.
I dont mind glamorous costumes (i hope i got the glitzy translation right and i m not out of subject) and it doesnt distract me from their skating even if they have one million stars on, but as in any form of art skaters must support their choice of costume on ice, and the costume must enhance their body moves and performance. And as long as it doesnt look strange on them(like it is not theirs) I m fine.It is always on the beholders eye though cause I found the colors of lambiel's zebra totally normal and not distracting, I remember his program by heart (youtube helps), up until I joined forum I didnt think someone could find it strange!! But buttle's dalida dull red costume was completely distracting and wrong for me. In women glamour costumes are sometimes small pieces of art and you cannot but take notice, i loved costner's dresses and yuna's sp dress. But I remember their programs.
I think for men people comment mostly on the bad or strange costumes whereas in women conversation goes for the most beautiful ones.

gio · May 22, 2009

Spun Silver said:
Ok, so we start with skaters in Maoist uniforms (designed by Donna Karan). Next, we get rid of the music (which the "glitzy" costumes attempted to express) because what serious sport has music? Third, we get rid of any possible extraneous narrative reference - swan flutters, phantasmal Carmenesque castanets, hand movements that remind us of geishas, or brushing snow, tragic facial expressions a la Juliet or Cavaradossi (Tosca) or even any generic pair of lovers.

Next, we start acknowledging the problems with all the past programs that we once (silly us) thought were masterpieces thanks in part to their music, costumes, and expressiveness.

Then we say good bye to all the old fans because they loved those reactionary aspects of the sport.

Finally, we reach the Promised Land of figure skating as the OBJECTIVE SPORT it was always meant to be! Hello, Brave New World!

ITA!! :agree: Such an objective sport will immediately loose me as a fan.

I don't want to see Mao in a Maoist uniform, unless she is skating to a Maoist program that would suit the costume.

viv · May 22, 2009

gio said:
ITA!! :agree: Such an objective sport will immediately loose me as a fan.

:thumbsup:

I don't want to see Mao in a Maoist uniform, unless she is skating to a Maoist program that would suit the costume.

antmanb · May 22, 2009

Mathman said:
Stefane Lambiel gave several ourstanding performances of his Four Seasons. What do we remember about them? He had on a funny-looking shirt.

I can only speak for myself, but I don't like Vivaldi's four seasons, i don't like skaters skating to the music at all. For thsi reason alone I didn't enjoy Lambiel's performance of that Particular programme (in fact most of Lambiel's competitive programmes leave me pretty cold except the Flamenco one :love:

) I only remember his costume because it was so ridiculous. I also remember a lot of his other costumes (as well as other skaters) simply because it is an easy way in my memory to remember which program was which.

Mathman said:
What do we remember most about Johnny Weir's "Swan?" The exquisite program, or that fact that he wore a bird costume complete with hand-puppet beak?

Absolutely both! The exquisite programme - everything in that programme was just perfect. It might well be my favourite SP of all time (though he's battling it out with Michelle's Romanza!). The costume, for me was part of the magic, and not (just!) because he had a beak on his hand. The beautiful detailing of the feathers on the costume (without havign distracting dangling things on it), and the beak on the hand added to the exquisite skating because when he hit certain spin positions and purposefully raised a bent arm it did look like the beak of swan, his arm was the neck and the position the rest of his body was in was exactly like a swan. Would everyone have got that without the costume? I'm not so sure.

Mathman said:
The costumes should not be the most memorable thing about a skating competition, in my opinion.

They shouldn't be the most memorable thing, but often that speaks right to the skating, if all we remember is the costume.

Kwan's Salome had (IMO) a gorgeous but theatrical costume. What do most people remember about Salome?

Ant

seniorita · May 22, 2009

her dance?:scratch:

Joesitz (RIP) · May 22, 2009

gio said:
ITA!! :agree: Such an objective sport will immediately loose me as a fan.

I don't want to see Mao in a Maoist uniform, unless she is skating to a Maoist program that would suit the costume.

Of course not. The whole point of competitions is the costume related programs, and not the skating ability programs. No?

antmanb · May 22, 2009

seniorita said:
her dance?:scratch:

Ok let me edit my post because i may be wasn't clear!

Ant

antmanb · May 22, 2009

Joesitz said:
Of course not. The whole point of competitions is the costume related programs, and not the skating ability programs. No?

Yes of course you're right Joe, everybody knows that if you appreciate costuming in figure skating then your brain switches off, you don't watch the skating, you sit slack jawed in your chair with drool hanging out of your open mouth because something sparkly caught your attention :rolleye:

Ant

seniorita · May 22, 2009

antmanb said:
Kwan's Salome had (IMO) a gorgeous but theatrical costume. Ant

Lol I cracked up with my answer now!and it seemed so easy answer, i would not think you meant kwan in a milllion years :laugh:

antmanb · May 22, 2009

seniorita said:
Lol I cracked up with my answer now!and it seemed so easy answer, i would not think you meant kwan in a milllion years

It was one of those moments where i knew exactly what i was talking about and didn't write the main subject down! It happens far too often for me!

What? No-one else thinks of Kwan and only Kwan when someone says "Salome"? :laugh:

Ant

Changing The Image Of Men's Figure Skating

pippa

Mathman

pippa

Joesitz (RIP)

Medusa

Mathman

Spun Silver

Mathman

Tonichelle

Idita-Rock-n-Roll

dancingqueen

seniorita

gio

viv

antmanb

seniorita

Joesitz (RIP)

antmanb

antmanb

seniorita

antmanb

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