Yuna, Mao and Sasha | Page 4 | Golden Skate

Yuna, Mao and Sasha

Tinymavy15

Sinnerman for the win
Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 28, 2006
I think the poster just meant to say she was suprised Sasha didn't attempt to fix her edges on her flip and lutz.

but how do we know that she has not? She has only been attempting the salchow and axel in shows, so we have no idea what she has been working on concerning the other jumps. Obviously she did not stop practicng them altogether...there is no way she would have gotten them back just like that asn dbe working on 3/3s if she had compeltly neglected them.
 

Particle Man

Match Penalty
Joined
Mar 23, 2008
I think Sasha will have no problems beating the current US Ladies. And I think the USFSA will show her the same favoritism they showed Alissa this year.

I'm trying to read that as a slam of the judges rather than Sasha. After all, skaters can only control their performance, judges control the results. I think it is possible that USFSA would hold up Sasha in some circumstance, but only if all of the following occurred:

- She proved through previous competitions in the season that she isn't having serious problems with injuries or any other problems from being gone so long. This isn't incredibly likely as she may only get Skate America, so she might not have much chance to prove herself prior to Nationals, but we'll see what GPs she gets assigned and what she actually attends
- She is close to a tie with some other skater for 2nd place after the FS, and on the lower end of the probable scoring result, given a "fair" result (if anyone can even figure out what that is under CoP.)

Both of those things occurring isn't THAT likely... anyway, I don't think it's fair to assume judging impropriety before it happens. If it happens, scream about it, otherwise just focus on the positives...
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
I can't even guess what kind of pcs she will get. With a near-clean program, she should be getting pcs close to Yuna IMO.

One reasonable jump layout for Sasha would be.

3z
3f-2t
3r
3s-2t-2r
3t-2a
3f
3s (or 3r)

With this layout, her base value will be less than 1 point lower than Joannie's and within 2-3 points reach to Yuna/Mao's.

I think any skater who lays down seven clean triples is going to be in the mix.

That 3T-2A is a little tricky. It would have to be a sequence, so it would lose some of its value there. Plus, if Sasha missed it by taking an extra step, that would cost her a jumping pass, while if she missed the second jump altogether then she hasn't done an Axel.

Both Miki and Kim... [OT, if your name were Miki Kim, it would be a palindrome -- the same read backward or forward]...both Ando and Kim did it the other way around, 2A+3T combo, but this would be almost as hard as a triple-triple.
 

dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Country
United-States
None the less, it is perhaps fair to mention that Elaine Zayak did 2A3T fairly routinely. So did Katarina Witt, for that matter. And a lot of the ladies back in that day did 2L3t, 2F3T and/or 2Lz3T in order to meet the SP requirements with the toughest combo they could do, based on the requirement that one of the jumps had to be the double required for the given year.
 

Nadine

Record Breaker
Joined
Oct 3, 2003
All this talk of jumps & sequences, in particular the 2A-3T combo, has gotten me excited about the upcoming season, lol! :) Also, it brought back one of my all-time favorite programs from one of my all-time favorite skaters (i.e. Sarah Hughes) ~ at the 2002 GPF she completed her twelfth 7-triple program in her career, which included a gorgeous 2A-3T sequence at the very beginning. In fact her jump layout was the following:

2A-3T sequence
3S-3R combo.
3L-2T combo.
3F
spiral-into 3turns-into 3R
3L
spiral-into 2A!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N8DBzN0EqfI

I recall that season very well, as it reminded me of Mao Asada this season, both experimenting with various jumps/jump combinations/sequences/et al while working up to that perfect program, which of course in Sarah's case just so happened to culminate at the Olympics ~ her FS marking the thirteenth time in her career that she landed 7 triples, with the highlight being the first time she ever landed *two* 3/3combos. in the FS!

I have high hopes for all the skaters to achieve a personal best this upcoming season, something they've been working on & working on & finally succeeding in, whether it be at a GP event, Nationals, Worlds, or Olympics. Be it two quads in the FS for the men, or two triple axels in the FS for the ladies, or finally completing a clean performance in both the SP & LP for all the disciplines. But to see a f-i-r-s-t happen for a skater(s) is something very very special; brings back wonderful memories of Tonya Harding landing her first 3A at 1991 Nationals and of course Sarah Hughes landing two 3/3 combos. for the first time ever at the 2002 Olympics. Also, ladies 2008 U.S. Nationals FS was absolutely spectacular, right up there with the other two in my memory ~ it just got better & better, each lady stepped up to the plate & landed 7 triples (3/3 combos. included!), what a night, what a night!!!!:rock::bow:

Not being very familiar with all of Sasha's skates from previous years, I wish a diehard fan of hers could list how many times she landed 6 triples? I know she routinely landed 5 triples, but I don't think she ever landed 7? But, what I do recall is a fantastically gorgeous 3/3 sequence she landed long ago, which had me searching on www.youtube.com for it ~ the 3T-1/2R-3S sequence:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m1p-9PdI5bc :love:

EDITED TO ADD: I also just read recently that Emily Hughes will be taking a year off from Harvard to concentrate on the upcoming season. :) I'm very happy for her, as I've always loved her skating, but more than all else she makes me smile ~ she has the kind of aura that attracts people ~ I'm drawn to her because of her positive attitude, she just exudes a bright lovely light, like a moth to a flame. :)
 
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Sasha'sSpins

Medalist
Joined
Apr 2, 2009
Country
United-States
It takes a lot of work to turn a Flutz into a Lutz because the skater has gotten so used to the ease of jumping the normal rotating way that to remedy it to the counter rotating way is a big obstacle. It should be taught specifically by the coaches when a skater is introduced to the Lutz.

Why is it that European skaters do not have this problem?

This is the mystery.

It reminds me a bit of artistic gymnastics and the pitiful lack of basics in so many enormously talented gymnasts. It seems clear they were taught the big tricks but with no finesse and no proper technique.
 

MKFSfan

Medalist
Joined
Mar 15, 2006
I'm trying to read that as a slam of the judges rather than Sasha. After all, skaters can only control their performance, judges control the results. I think it is possible that USFSA would hold up Sasha in some circumstance, but only if all of the following occurred:

- She proved through previous competitions in the season that she isn't having serious problems with injuries or any other problems from being gone so long. This isn't incredibly likely as she may only get Skate America, so she might not have much chance to prove herself prior to Nationals, but we'll see what GPs she gets assigned and what she actually attends
- She is close to a tie with some other skater for 2nd place after the FS, and on the lower end of the probable scoring result, given a "fair" result (if anyone can even figure out what that is under CoP.)

Both of those things occurring isn't THAT likely... anyway, I don't think it's fair to assume judging impropriety before it happens. If it happens, scream about it, otherwise just focus on the positives...
Yes, my comment was intended to be a slam against the judges, hence why I said like they did at 2009 Nationals with Alissa. Don't need to get so defensive, not every comment is to be taken as a slam against Sasha.

Interesting to note that according to Hersh, supposedly USFSA has extended an invite to SA to Michelle...Sasha has said if invited she would accept.
 

R.D.

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
I can't even guess what kind of pcs she will get. With a near-clean program, she should be getting pcs close to Yuna IMO.

One reasonable jump layout for Sasha would be.

3z
3f-2t X
3r
3s-2t-2r
3t-2a
3f X
3s (or 3r)

With this layout, her base value will be less than 1 point lower than Joannie's and within 2-3 points reach to Yuna/Mao's.

Since skating boards are buzzing with Cohen speculation, why not take a shot at the following. How's the following for off-season Cohen speculation.

Assume the above is her actual jump layout. Now, given her history of freeskate performances, she most likely won't complete everything. So suppose she fails on the jumps marked above with a Red X, making it a typical Cohen performance. Assume one or both are falls, meaning she does not complete the combo. You may also assume that she fully rotates all triples. Now, speculators, tell me- do you think will she be still in contention?

Then move the red X's around and figure out the two jumps she could afford to flub and lose the minimum amount of points. :biggrin:
 
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Particle Man

Match Penalty
Joined
Mar 23, 2008
I'm not that deep into the actual points for each elements... but I will say that we have seen people like Mao WIN competitions even with ghastly falls. CoP is really a better system for Sasha than 6.0 was, that's another reason it's a shame she left for so long. A clean skate mattered under 6.0. Under CoP, a clean skate is only incidental - it's really about the total points you can rack up. I am certain that Sasha has the ability to get the highest levels on almost everything, that's gonna be more of a boost than some people realize. Of course that assumes her choreographer and coach for the season know what they are doing and plan the program properly to get her those levels, if they don't she will be in trouble. But I have heard (before we even knew for sure she was coming back) that she was seen poring over CoP handbooks on the SoI bus. ;)

She still needs a strong jump repertoire, but one fall isn't going to be the death of her. Even with 2 falls, she could theoretically still have a chance against a clean Rachael or Caroline, depending on everything else in their programs (including edges.) But win or lose, I'm DYING to see her new programs.
 

Wrlmy

Medalist
Joined
Jun 17, 2007
With two falls, OGM or any OM would be a long shot, but she can still contend with the American girls. And for the record, ur was never an issue for Sasha. It was the landing that always gave her trouble, but otherwise, she had great technique except for flutzing.
 

evangeline

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 7, 2007
I'm not that deep into the actual points for each elements... but I will say that we have seen people like Mao WIN competitions even with ghastly falls.

The reason why Mao wins competitions even when she falls is because her jump layout is more difficult (and thus racks up more points) than most other skaters. Unless Sasha jumps 3As and 3-3s like Mao, she's not going to win anything internationally if she falls.

That being said, however, I agree that Sasha still has a chance against clean Rachael and clean Caroline if she falls once. Twice, I'm not sure....
 

Tinymavy15

Sinnerman for the win
Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 28, 2006
She still needs a strong jump repertoire, but one fall isn't going to be the death of her. Even with 2 falls, she could theoretically still have a chance against a clean Rachael or Caroline, depending on everything else in their programs (including edges.) But win or lose, I'm DYING to see her new programs.

I agree. I am pretty sure that she will use Moonlight Sonata as one of her programs..it is a masterpiece and seems very much like a competitive program. I hope she skates to something where she can show her fiery, spunky spirit. She always seemed to skate better to those programs.
 

Nadine

Record Breaker
Joined
Oct 3, 2003
Lol, I'm exhausted from watching so many programs over on www.youtube.com tonight, but finally found what I was looking for ~ a p-e-r-f-e-c-t 7-triple performance from Sasha Cohen at 2004 Marshalls!:clap:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ouNL5ux17c4

So I answered my own question - yes, Sasha has skated a perfect 7-triple performance program before - she's done it before & can definitely do it again (ala Steve Prefontaine "to give anything less than your best is to sacrifice the gift" ).

Odd, I don't recall this particular competition, though I do recall the Swan Lake program, which kept changing & changing. I can't say I'm a particular fan of the program, but the elements were the best I've ever seen from Sasha, fabulous! The split jump she does in the program was my fav back then (was so disappointed when she only performed it for one season, would love for her to bring it back, reminds me of Baryshnikov), also the ending scratch spin with the unique positions of the arms was my all-time favorite spin from her (to this day I have never seen another skater do that particular spin ever, what a joy to see it again; my second favorite spin of hers was the headless one, which once again she only performed a few times, reminiscent of Denise Biellmann at her best).

Sasha Cohen is the only skater I can see defeating those with 3/3 combos. & possibly 3 axel(s), as she did at 2004 Marshalls, having defeated a 7-triple program (including one 3/3 combo.) from Shizuka Arakawa, but she too must be perfect. In fact, it is my belief that if everybody skates their best, she will win.

Nessun dorma! Nessun dorma!
Tu pure, o, Principessa,
nella tua fredda stanza,
guardi le stelle
che tremano d'amore
e di speranza.
Ma il mio mistero è chiuso in me,
il nome mio nessun saprà!
No, no, sulla tua bocca lo dirò
quando la luce splenderà!
Ed il mio bacio scioglierà il silenzio
che ti fa mia!
(Il nome suo nessun saprà!...
e noi dovrem, ahime, morir!)
Dilegua, o notte!
Tramontate, stelle!
Tramontate, stelle!
All'alba vincerò!
vincerò, vincerò!

English Translation of "Nessun Dorma"
Nobody shall sleep!...
Nobody shall sleep!
Even you, o Princess,
in your cold room,
watch the stars,
that tremble with love and with hope.
But my secret is hidden within me,
my name no one shall know...
No!...No!...
On your mouth I will tell it when the light shines.
And my kiss will dissolve the silence that makes you mine!...
(No one will know his name and we must, alas, die.)
Vanish, o night!
Set, stars! Set, stars!
At dawn, I will win! I will win! I will win!
 

Sasha'sSpins

Medalist
Joined
Apr 2, 2009
Country
United-States
Lol, I'm exhausted from watching so many programs over on www.youtube.com tonight, but finally found what I was looking for ~ a p-e-r-f-e-c-t 7-triple performance from Sasha Cohen at 2004 Marshalls!:clap:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ouNL5ux17c4

So I answered my own question - yes, Sasha has skated a perfect 7-triple performance program before - she's done it before & can definitely do it again (ala Steve Prefontaine "to give anything less than your best is to sacrifice the gift" ).

Odd, I don't recall this particular competition, though I do recall the Swan Lake program, which kept changing & changing. I can't say I'm a particular fan of the program, but the elements were the best I've ever seen from Sasha, fabulous! The split jump she does in the program was my fav back then (was so disappointed when she only performed it for one season, would love for her to bring it back, reminds me of Baryshnikov), also the ending scratch spin with the unique positions of the arms was my all-time favorite spin from her (to this day I have never seen another skater do that particular spin ever, what a joy to see it again; my second favorite spin of hers was the headless one, which once again she only performed a few times, reminiscent of Denise Biellmann at her best).

Sasha Cohen is the only skater I can see defeating those with 3/3 combos. & possibly 3 axel(s), as she did at 2004 Marshalls, having defeated a 7-triple program (including one 3/3 combo.) from Shizuka Arakawa, but she too must be perfect. In fact, it is my belief that if everybody skates their best, she will win.

I love that Marshalls Sasha routine-one of my favorites.

I love Sasha-but I think if everyone skates their best Yu-na will win and Sasha may possibly eke out a bronze. I think Mao would win silver. Joannie definitely might be a factor too imo. I don't care for her style but she's got the jumps, and terrific everything else.

I can't tell how many triple jumps she's pulling off because the quality is so poor but I found this on daily motion-I've never seen Sasha do so many combos-especially fairly well into the program:

2003? Worlds Qualifying - Rachmaninoff
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x9065w_sasha-cohen-2003-worlds-qr-rachmani_sport
 

evangeline

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 7, 2007
Sasha's 2004 Marshalls Swan Lake was a lovely program, but Marshalls was a low-pressure cheesefest. Since Sasha is aiming for the Olympics--the biggest event of the year--I don't think Sasha's performance at 2004 Marshalls is necessarily the best indicator of how Sasha will perfom at the high-pressure Olympics, or even US Nationals. I say this because it is very obvious that Sasha can do the jumps, but it's the mistakes she when's she under pressure or competition nerves that cost her.

Has Sasha skated a clean LP at an actual ISU competition, even a GP one?
 

antmanb

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 5, 2004
I'm not that deep into the actual points for each elements... but I will say that we have seen people like Mao WIN competitions even with ghastly falls.

But i would say that is pretty much only Mao that can have bad falls and still win competitions and that because she attempts the harder 3A and 3A combos and a 3/3. With the point difference that makes (even she falls on one of them) she has a comfortable cushion. Personally i don't think any other skater has that cushion, even Yuna does not fiar well when she pops jumps or falls.

one fall isn't going to be the death of her. Even with 2 falls, she could theoretically still have a chance against a clean Rachael or Caroline, depending on everything else in their programs (including edges.) But win or lose, I'm DYING to see her new programs.

I suppose that is relevant for nationals but at Olympics or Worlds she's going to need to be perfect and I think even then she'd be fighting for silver or bronze. The key for her would be not to fall or pop jumps. If she can stay on her feet then I think she would be treated the same way as Kostner is, which would be to her advantage.

Ant
 

antmanb

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 5, 2004
Sasha Cohen at 2004


So I answered my own question - yes, Sasha has skated a perfect 7-triple performance program before - she's done it before & can definitely do it again (ala Steve Prefontaine "to give anything less than your best is to sacrifice the gift" ).

Ok, I have no doubt that Particle Man will jump all over this as a bash, it is not intended to be a bash, i'm simply being realistic. What makes you think she can definitely do it again, when she never did it again after that performance. 2006 Olympics where two years later and she didn't manage it there (or any competition leading up to it) nor did she manage it at a comparatively easier (in terms of competitors) Worlds. Add to that the three and half year break and that fact that we don't yet know if she can land triple loop, flip or lutz again.

Honestly I think at the moment, with the break frmo competitive skating. Even if she gets all of her triples back, the best maxed out jump performance we will see from Sasha is a 6 triple program.

Ant
 

MKFSfan

Medalist
Joined
Mar 15, 2006
I'm not that deep into the actual points for each elements... but I will say that we have seen people like Mao WIN competitions even with ghastly falls.

As others have said, Mao plots out ghastly jump layouts to go along with those ghastly falls. Not just in what she attempts, but her transitions into jumps are hard, so she deserves getting good marks. And once her 3lutz has improved, she'll have more points. Her spins/spirals do receive high levels/marks, and she did get a level 4 for FW (any other lady ever do so?)

CoP is really a better system for Sasha than 6.0 was, that's another reason it's a shame she left for so long. A clean skate mattered under 6.0. Under CoP, a clean skate is only incidental - it's really about the total points you can rack up. I am certain that Sasha has the ability to get the highest levels on almost everything, that's gonna be more of a boost than some people realize. Of course that assumes her choreographer and coach for the season know what they are doing and plan the program properly to get her those levels, if they don't she will be in trouble. But I have heard (before we even knew for sure she was coming back) that she was seen poring over CoP handbooks on the SoI bus. ;)

For me, this is why I'm not a big fan of COP. Forget the cookie cutter spirals everyone does, and repetitive spins and FW that doesn't go with the music. Seems like often times the sum of the whole is greater than the parts. Sasha does bring a great quality to COP in trying to maintain the artistic integrity of the performance. IMO, so does Yu-Na and as of late Joannie. I think Mao has the potential, but is so overwhelmed by the jump layout TAT gives her, the artistic part is more subtle. In the US, Mirai and Caroline approach that aspect. I like Rachel, she probably is technically one of the strongest, soundest skaters we've ever had, but I find her kinda bland.

She still needs a strong jump repertoire, but one fall isn't going to be the death of her. Even with 2 falls, she could theoretically still have a chance against a clean Rachael or Caroline, depending on everything else in their programs (including edges.) But win or lose, I'm DYING to see her new programs.
Going based on Alissa's marks at Nationals, Sasha can DEFINITELY can afford 2 falls in the LP if attempting 7 triples. Granted, Alissa had enough of a lead after the SP, but I can see same trend happening with Sasha in 2010. If Rachel, Ashley, Caroline and/or Mirai get consistent in rotating their 3/3's and are able to deliver clean SP's, things might be much closer heading into the LP, and then who knows what'll happen. That scenario could very well play out at 2010 Nationals, either way (based on if Sasha attempts same jump layout as Alissa.)

I'm eager to see what Sasha can do. I believe Sasha would not be attempting a comeback unless she is very close to what she was doing in 2006, flutz and all. Eliminating a spin might cost her a few points since that is her strength, and she'll have to either re-work her sequence, or include a 3/3 or 2a/3 in order to have 7 triples (going based on 2006 of course).

Definitely hard to predict how Sasha will do until we see her, but if we go based on her 2006 performances at TEB and Olympics, she should be in the mix. Her marks: SP-60.95 and 66.73 sound right at the top for any non-3/3 short program. But I think those same LPs will go down at least 3-5 points each under new rules-"e", UR and minus one spin-she had gotten a 114.16 and 116.73 with 1 fall in each (although based on rules, she should've gotten 2 falls at the Olympics.) But, as you said PM, Sasha has been studying so her programs most likely would be more up to the new code. And the new rule for applying "e/!" after the judges enter their marks bodes well for Sasha. She needs to rework the jumps though. Out of 20 jump attempts between TEB and Olympics, 11 received -GOEs and 5 received 0 GOE's, so she definitely has lots of room to improve and points to pick up here.
 
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szidon

On the Ice
Joined
Mar 22, 2008
jump base values of Mao, Yuna, Rochett. And Sasha?

But i would say that is pretty much only Mao that can have bad falls and still win competitions and that because she attempts the harder 3A and 3A combos and a 3/3. With the point difference that makes (even she falls on one of them) she has a comfortable cushion. Personally i don't think any other skater has that cushion, even Yuna does not fiar well when she pops jumps or falls.

Based on the jump base values at L.A. Worlds, Mao had a 2.4 point cushion against Yuna and a 3.5 point against Rochette in LP.

jump base values at Worlds

1. Yuna
(credit for the second half of the program)
3F+3T: 9.50
2A: 3.50
3lz+2t+2l 8.80
2A+3T 7.50 (8.25)
3Lz 6.00 (6.60)
3S 4.50 (4.95)
2A 3.50 (3.85)
------------------------------
43.3 (45.45)

2. Mao
3A+2T 9.50
3A 8.20
3F+2L+2L 8.50
3L 5.00 (5.50)
3F+2L 7.00 (7.70)
3T 4.00(4.40)
2A 3.50(3.85)
------------------------------
45.7 (47.65)

3. Rochette
3Lz+2t+2l 8.80
3F 5.50
3L 5.00
3Lz 6.00(6.60)
3t+3s(seq) 6.80(7.48)
2A+2A(seq) 5.60(6.16)
3S 4.50 (4.95)
---------------------------------
42.2(44.49)

How is Sasha's jump layout (and base value) exactly going to be?

As to the Asian gals, I really think with Kim's speed and high LEVEL triples and Mao's 3A are unreachable by any other Lady in this era of figure skating. One can't help but notice that. However, as both Ladies are musical, can they get emotional? Mao did show emotion with her gypsy number in Tokyo, but YuNa tends to keep a straight face. Jmo.

Well, Kurt Browning seems to have a different view on Yuna's use of her face: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TjzZTKv1Fxc
 
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