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Thread: If the NJS was around back then...

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    If the NJS was around back then...

    Forgive me if this has been answered before. For argument's sake, let's say the 2002 Olympics pairs competition was the catalyst that brought about the new judging system. Had the NJS been around then, who would have won? B&S or S&P? I know there are still subjective elements in the NJS, but is there anyone who knows enough about the new system to be able to answer that question? It's been bugging me for years!

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    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    I think people shy away from taking a stand on this question because if the IJS had been in place then both of the teams would have skated different programs.

    Plus, since the event was decided by suspicious judging, it is hard to guess how that might have played out with the same judges but using a different scoring system.

    That having been said, the new system (at least at its inception) definitely rewarded harder tricks done indifferently, compared to easy tricks done well. This would seem to give the edge to B&S -- or maybe to Shen and Zhou for the gold.

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    Wicked Yankee Girl dorispulaski's Avatar
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    Considering how often and how markedly pairs COP rules have changed, first you'd have to say, "Under which year's rules?"
    However, my guess is that B&S would have been 10 points ahead on the SP (one of the finest pairs' programs I have ever seen on TV), and it wouldn't really have mattered how the LP was graded that much, since everyone agrees the LP was close.

    All in all, it was an amazingly well skated event. I'll try to find the programs of the top 6 pairs so anyone who wants to take a crack at grading can do so. Use this year's rules! However, you will find all sorts of stuff that is interesting, and currently illegal. Also they had 3 jumps passes.

    Oh my, I truly hate what COP has done to pairs. It used to be so wonderful.

    Berezhnyah and Sikuralidze SP Lady Caliph
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FAsRPcG9xXE
    Berezhnyah and Sikuralidze LP
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7RRgD...om=PL&index=81

    Sale and Pelletier SP
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tAY0ieJzCaA
    Sale and Pelletier LP Love Story
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x8ktFtDRvSM

    Shen & Zhao SP
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y-Qt0-uxWWo
    Shen & Zhao LP
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b7RG3h8J2bs

    Totmianana & Marinin SP
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6Y6mK6hv80
    Totmianana & Marinin LP West Side Story
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QywvEJ3RQAY

    Ina & Zimmerman SP Shine on You Crazy Diamond
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tCrhq...eature=related
    Ina & Zimmerman LP Variations on a Theme by Paganini?
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LS7lCWDdQs8

    Petrova & Tikhonov LP Chess
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=81C9_sV23Wc

    (I can't find their SP)
    Last edited by dorispulaski; 05-08-2009 at 03:04 PM. Reason: Got some stuff backward :(

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    Off the ice Buttercup's Avatar
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    Doris, thanks!

    This might sound strange, but I never watched the pairs SPs from SLC. It was the middle of the night for me, I was busy with university so couldn't watch taped highlights, and then the whole thing was overshadowed by the LP controversy. So this was a great opportunity to take a look. And having done so, well, I am finding it hard to understand how any judge - even a Canadian judge - could've put S/P ahead of B/S on the SP. Elena and Anton skated a gorgeous program superbly. Jamie and David skated quite well but the program was nowhere near as impressive. BTW, was that Scott saying something not positive about S/P's footwork? So he was making an effort to be objective . The LP is debatable and always will be.

    Who would have won with the current system? Obviously the programs would have been constructed differently. I believe that under CoP Elena and Anton would have won. The LP might have gone either way (though I think they would have won that, too), but their SP lead would have been big enough to ensure a win.

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    Wicked Yankee Girl dorispulaski's Avatar
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    I looked back and found I got my backwardses and forwardses reversed, because I have always believed that B&S's Lady Caliph is one of the finest pairs SP evah! (So I've edited my error out of my post)

    BTW, while it is difficult to do COP grading on the LP, it is easier on the SP.

    I would have it:

    B&S by 10
    S&Z eye-popping 3t, very close together, great ice coverage on the throw, super 2tw. DS very nice. Spin OK. F/w interesting. COPwise, I think the spin stops when either of them stops rotating, so it's likely that these days what Sandra & Scott are calling for a deduction for (Zhao spinning longer) would be called 'choreo' these days.
    S&P quite close to S&Z, but S&P probably get -1 for the fall. They maybe get a point over S&Z for perf/choreo, and the lift was very nice. However, the 3T has a bit of unison trouble, the 2Tw was not as good as S&Z, and the throw was worse than S&Z. F/W not up to snuff versus the field.
    I &Z (for the creative transitions, especially into the 3LpTh for extra GOE), perhaps 2 points back of S&Z/S&P. Probably 0 GOE on the 3T due to his bobble. I liked the F/W.
    T&M at least 3 points back of I&Z. They were slow, accurate and transitionless. And their DS didn't look fully rotated, the 2Tw was chest crashy (-1). The lift wasn't that wonderful either-kind of messy set down. Best skill, the 3T.
    Last edited by dorispulaski; 05-08-2009 at 03:34 PM.

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    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
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    Everyone has their OPINIONS on who should have won. under the 6.0 system. In those days, the two top teams were to be golden only by the LP so the SP was irrelevant.

    The ISU settled it with a tie, but if the tie were to be broken one has to consider, under the CoP, what deduction the faux pas of B&S would have meant.

    I'm with MM on this. Strategy by the two teams would have been different to satisfy the CoP.

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    I agree with Mathman, both pairs would definitely have done different programs (I think some of their elements would be considered level 1s right now...) but if we were to CoP-judge the programs as they were skating that night in 2002, B/S definitely would've gotten the gold. Their Lady Caliph SP was absolutely phenomenal (but ridiculously undermarked) and would've gotten a big fat lead coming into the LP a la Yu-Na Kim at this year's Worlds and 4CC.

    IF the PCS was marked correctly, I believe B/S would've won on that too, especially on transitions and skating skills.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    I think people shy away from taking a stand on this question because if the IJS had been in place then both of the teams would have skated different programs.
    I'm sure they would have, but if those programs done on that night were judged by the NJS, who would have come on top? Short program is undoubtedly B&S, but just the long? I'm curious to know

    I would still place B&S on top because of their transitions and constant changes of edges in their skating and choreography.
    Last edited by Raatkirani; 05-08-2009 at 09:16 PM. Reason: changed my mind

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    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raatkirani View Post
    I would still place B&S on top because of their transitions and constant changes of edges in their skating and choreography.
    To me, the strange thing is that now, looking back, almost everyone agrees with this assessment. Back then the fans, like the judges, seemed split.

    In principle, superior skating skills and more intricate choreography ought to translate into higher program component scores. But it is still up to the judges.

    On this particular panel of judges, even in the short program three judges out of nine gave Sale and Pelletier the higher presentation mark, and more might have if S&P hadn't fallen out of their closing pose. It is not clear to me whether any of those judges would have changed their minds if a different scoring system had been in place.

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    and... World Peace! Tonichelle's Avatar
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    it must be summer...


    if the NJS had been around in 1994, I think Kurt would have redeemed himself even MORE in the LP.... (and yes, I know this is random, but I figured I'd beat the summer rush and repeat myself now rather than later! )

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    To me, the strange thing is that now, looking back, almost everyone agrees with this assessment. Back then the fans, like the judges, seemed split.

    In principle, superior skating skills and more intricate choreography ought to translate into higher program component scores. But it is still up to the judges.

    On this particular panel of judges, even in the short program three judges out of nine gave Sale and Pelletier the higher presentation mark, and more might have if S&P hadn't fallen out of their closing pose. It is not clear to me whether any of those judges would have changed their minds if a different scoring system had been in place.
    At the time Sale/Pelletier were sort of the favourites with the judges--a lot of decisions were going in their favour which seemed pretty dubious--2001 Worlds is the best example (ugh pure highway robbery).

    I think we can say that if we were judging the separate components of PCS as objectively as we could, Berezhnaya/Sikharulidze would win. But the way PCS is currently being judged now with all the components averaging around the same marks no matter what you do, it's not unconcievable that Sale/Pelletier would've benefited.

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    I keep on hearing the illegal Hip lift of Sale/Pelletier, without starting a debate about the subject can anyone tell me what was wrong about the lift (if at all it is illegal). I am not a techi person and don't really want to look at those rules book from 2002.

    i would also like to know if that would be called illegal by technical specialist, who are more aggressive in their callings.

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    Custom Title antmanb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by life684 View Post
    I keep on hearing the illegal Hip lift of Sale/Pelletier, without starting a debate about the subject can anyone tell me what was wrong about the lift (if at all it is illegal). I am not a techi person and don't really want to look at those rules book from 2002.

    i would also like to know if that would be called illegal by technical specialist, who are more aggressive in their callings.
    I am not sure about this but wasn't their lift straying dangerously close to being "top of the thigh" rather than "hip"?

    Ant

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