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Thread: Thoughts on 2009-2010 ISU Ice Dance guidelines

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    Wicked Yankee Girl dorispulaski's Avatar
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    Thoughts on 2009-2010 ISU Ice Dance guidelines

    http://isu.sportcentric.net/db//files/serve.php?id=1442

    It is recommended that couples should use their own traditional folk or country music and dances.
    The folk/country dance character and style must be translated to the ice by flow and use of edges.
    OD Requirements:

    The dance spin is not required (too bad IMO, as this is one element that many of the teams do poorly), but one can be used as an ungraded element.

    Incorrect rhythm choice Must Be Penalized

    1 Required lift, 1 optional lift

    Sequential twizzles

    Midline step sequence not touching
    Circular or diagonal sequence in holds
    negative GOE if steps are not skated with the rhythm
    1 point reduction in GOE if steps do not reflect the character of the music
    Any illegal element in a step (jump more than 1/2 rev, retrograde steps, lying on ice, and the step gets Zero points.

    So what dances in your opinion should US and Canadian teams use, given the new emphasis on using your own country's dances?

    BTW, also announced, the OD for the 2010/ 2011 season is rhythms of the 50's, 60's and 70's. Disco rulez!. And rock and roll. And the twist, mashed potatoes and the watusi.

    CDs for the 2010/ 2011 season are the Ravensburger Waltz and the Finnstep again I'm so glad that we are going to have another chance to see the Finnstep. The Ravensburger was one of the two CD's used at Europeans and Worlds in 1991 and at the Olympics and Worlds in 2006.

    Finnstep (K&N, winners in the CD at Europeans, do their Finnstep as part of their Russian Nationals victory)
    http://rutube.ru/tracks/1356007.html...bd24a7eaf35538

    Navka & Kostamarov do the Ravensburger
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9rY3zi2tCgs
    Denkova & Staviyski do the Ravensburger (my favorite version of it!)
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JwvwgqQ4PhM
    Belbin & Agosto do the Ravensburger
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XSA-ye9A-7Y

    In 1991, the custom was not to do such high kicks in the Ravensburger.
    Usova & Zhulin do the Ravensburger (1991 they won this CD)
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S8MfEHAI54M
    Klimova & Ponamarenko do the Ravensburger (not their best)
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=noipgvYHQas

    For those interested in a short 'cheat sheet' on evaluating good and bad skating in the CD's, guidelines are included in this ISU communication for the Ravensburger, Finnstep, Tango Romantica, and Golden Waltz, so serious ice dance fans should book mark it.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=noipgvYHQas
    Last edited by dorispulaski; 05-09-2009 at 07:51 AM. Reason: Add info on the 2010/2011 season CD's

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    Quote Originally Posted by dorispulaski View Post
    So what dances in your opinion should US and Canadian teams use, given the new emphasis on using your own country's dances?
    Shania Twain, of course.

    I know Canadian folk music is pretty similar to Scottish or Irish folk music. La Bastringue is a French-Canadian fiddle tune. It's not bad at all. From what I can understand from the lyrics (they sing too fast!), it's a boy and a girl dancing. I think V/M could potentially pull it off!

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IT_Xf...eature=related

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    Remember what happened when B/A tried to use Appalachian folk music? The ISU judges "didn't understand it" and told them to use cowboy music instead. And STILL didn't like it.

    A junior team tried to use blues music and was told it was illegal.

    The ISU judges are largely European and know nothing about North American folk traditions and are not about to educate themselves.

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    Wicked Yankee Girl dorispulaski's Avatar
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    That's an excellent suggestion!

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    Thanks for posting this, dorispulaski.

    I have to be honest & say I'm disappointed with the OD choices. However, I'm very very happy about the OD for 2010/11!

    Still, after this year's Worlds, I have to say that I'm not that interested in dance at the Olympics next year because it looks like what made me a fan these past couple of years (i.e. movement in standings) has reverted to the old days.

    However, I look forward to 2010/11 with great anticipation & excitement!

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    Wicked Yankee Girl dorispulaski's Avatar
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    Actually, I expect things to become interesting by this year's worlds. The Olympics will probably be a mess, as usual.

    I hope either D&W or B&A do Cajun dancing

    Maybe to The Back Door
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nf0he...eature=related
    Here's some dancers doing Cajun
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Kzud...eature=related
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2JAebhI5yMw
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5NIcchscUzY

    or zydeco dancing
    I really like this tune:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ueBBP...eature=related
    Or this one
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mvXGJ8eP1B0
    Here's what the dancing looks like
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c_SGKnw611k
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YKVTj...eature=related

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    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
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    Doris - That phrase it is recomended is another one of those vague directives of the ISU. Does it mean a skater can not do and American Shuffle because they will not understand the life along the Mississippi? I suppose an Asian team will get by because no one understands the rhythms. Yes?
    Last edited by Joesitz; 05-09-2009 at 06:58 AM.

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    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Does Jazz count as American folk music? What about Rock and Roll? Is "the twist" an American folk dance?

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    Custom Title pista04's Avatar
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    What about a more Tejano music style? Do you think that wouldn't fly since it's not "American" enough? It'd be kinda interesting to see what a team could do with a Selena mix. Haha. =D

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    Well, it's like the ISU wants the OD to be like the opening of a Miss Universe pageant. I agree with the other posters about N. American folk music. It would be easier to do a European dance that all of the judges would understand.

    Dance spin: maybe the ice dancers would do short spins in the OD like the ones before COP ruled since it would be graded as choreography.

    I;m not sure that i am ready for disco yet. A whole season of " Ah ah ah stayin alive", finger pointing, and pelvic thrusts

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    Wicked Yankee Girl dorispulaski's Avatar
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    Joe& Mathman,
    Yes, it is annoying that the phrase "recommended" is used. For all I know, one could get away with "American Shuffle". Obscure dances worked quite well in 2007/2008. The primary examples would be Faiella & Scali's "pizzica" which had them dressed in very authentic costumes, skating to whistly rhythmic music, and doing the same skills they used the previous year, but if the pizzica is a tarantella, as the dictionary says, it didn't look much like any tarantella filmed on the internet. (It was charming though ) Another obscure dance that did well was Delobel and Schoenfelder's Breton gavotte. I'm still not sure what that dance is supposed to look like, it's so obscure, but they won worlds with it.

    The only examples we have of a team being penalized for a rhythm was a couple that did a blues at Lake Placid IDC the last time we had folk dance as a rhythm, and were told they had to change it (and they did). Also, Belbin and Agosto seem to have suffered from doing Appalachian folk dance. Although their costumes at Skate America were a bit reprehensible, the moves in their dance were authentic and under appreciated by the judges. They spent the season tinkering with both the costumes and the dance itself.

    However, if you read further through the document, you will find that 2010/2011's OD is Rhythm's of the 50's, 60's and 70's. I would recommend saving The Twist and Rock n Roll for then! However, what I expect is that Disco will be more frequently chosen dance. Samuelson and Bates, whose disco exhibition this year was charming, are way ahead of the game for 2010/2011.

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    Ice Dancing and Johnny Fan MissIzzy's Avatar
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    Actually, technically, it doesn't say their own country, it says "their own traditional," in other words, one can make an argument that the dances can be tied to the specific heritage of one of the two dancers, which at least one Canadian junior team did already with an African dance tied to him. If Tanith and Ben want to avoid what they went through last time around, they can always do a Hava Nigla, or some other Jewish dance. Or look at various Canadian dance possibilities. America being the kind of country it is, they would have more ties to those than to any given "American" dance.

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    Off the ice Buttercup's Avatar
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    Another team that can stretch the definition of "their own folk/tradition" is the Zaretskis. IIRC, Roman and Sasha are originally from Minsk, so they can go with an uninspired Kalinka-type choice. They could use Israeli folk dances (or hava nagila, which I hope they'll avoid), or opt for something more middle-Eastern themed like that Shik Shak Shock OD they had in 2007-8. They really need better choreo, though.

    I wonder what John and Sinead will choose to skate to. Hard to top their Scottish dance, but will they want to repeat it? Another team that has a really good folk OD as their benchmark is P/B with that gorgeous flamenco. I wonder what they'll end up doing.

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    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
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    Thanks Doris - I would love to see Samuelson & Bates 'Shuffling' along to the recording of 'Waiting for the Robert E. Lee' by Judy Garland, or an upbeat version of 'Can't Help Loving that Man of Mine' which is a big group number from Show Boat.

    Almost forgot: Please, only the Austrian couple to do a Waltz. It's their original dance, and no one elses.
    Last edited by Joesitz; 05-09-2009 at 07:12 AM.

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    Wicked Yankee Girl dorispulaski's Avatar
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    There are some extra odd rules in the bulk of this document. I have not yet read all of it. There are additions to the score for optional (?) elements and deductions to the score for not having the character of the dance right. This, of course, is one of my pet peeves (that such deductions are not taken)

    We shall see whether they are. However, who would want to take a risk such a Brian Joubert did with Latin vocals in 2008? No deduction throughout the season, only to have one taken at Worlds.

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