Thoughts on 2009-2010 ISU Ice Dance guidelines | Golden Skate

Thoughts on 2009-2010 ISU Ice Dance guidelines

dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
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United-States
http://isu.sportcentric.net/db//files/serve.php?id=1442

It is recommended that couples should use their own traditional folk or country music and dances.
The folk/country dance character and style must be translated to the ice by flow and use of edges.

OD Requirements:

The dance spin is not required (too bad IMO, as this is one element that many of the teams do poorly), but one can be used as an ungraded element.

Incorrect rhythm choice Must Be Penalized

1 Required lift, 1 optional lift

Sequential twizzles

Midline step sequence not touching
Circular or diagonal sequence in holds
negative GOE if steps are not skated with the rhythm
1 point reduction in GOE if steps do not reflect the character of the music :rock:
Any illegal element in a step (jump more than 1/2 rev, retrograde steps, lying on ice, and the step gets Zero points.

So what dances in your opinion should US and Canadian teams use, given the new emphasis on using your own country's dances?

BTW, also announced, the OD for the 2010/ 2011 season is rhythms of the 50's, 60's and 70's. Disco rulez!. And rock and roll. And the twist, mashed potatoes and the watusi.

CDs for the 2010/ 2011 season are the Ravensburger Waltz and the Finnstep again :rock: I'm so glad that we are going to have another chance to see the Finnstep. The Ravensburger was one of the two CD's used at Europeans and Worlds in 1991 and at the Olympics and Worlds in 2006.

Finnstep (K&N, winners in the CD at Europeans, do their Finnstep as part of their Russian Nationals victory)
http://rutube.ru/tracks/1356007.html?v=55853f884694d53e57bd24a7eaf35538

Navka & Kostamarov do the Ravensburger
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9rY3zi2tCgs
Denkova & Staviyski do the Ravensburger (my favorite version of it!)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JwvwgqQ4PhM
Belbin & Agosto do the Ravensburger
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XSA-ye9A-7Y

In 1991, the custom was not to do such high kicks in the Ravensburger.
Usova & Zhulin do the Ravensburger (1991 they won this CD)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S8MfEHAI54M
Klimova & Ponamarenko do the Ravensburger (not their best)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=noipgvYHQas

For those interested in a short 'cheat sheet' on evaluating good and bad skating in the CD's, guidelines are included in this ISU communication for the Ravensburger, Finnstep, Tango Romantica, and Golden Waltz, so serious ice dance fans should book mark it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=noipgvYHQas
 
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skatingbc

Final Flight
Joined
Jan 2, 2009
So what dances in your opinion should US and Canadian teams use, given the new emphasis on using your own country's dances?

Shania Twain, of course. :p

I know Canadian folk music is pretty similar to Scottish or Irish folk music. La Bastringue is a French-Canadian fiddle tune. It's not bad at all. From what I can understand from the lyrics (they sing too fast!), it's a boy and a girl dancing. I think V/M could potentially pull it off!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IT_XfTf2Hvk&feature=related
 

chuckm

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 31, 2003
Country
United-States
Remember what happened when B/A tried to use Appalachian folk music? The ISU judges "didn't understand it" and told them to use cowboy music instead. And STILL didn't like it.

A junior team tried to use blues music and was told it was illegal.

The ISU judges are largely European and know nothing about North American folk traditions and are not about to educate themselves.
 

Nadine

Record Breaker
Joined
Oct 3, 2003
Thanks for posting this, dorispulaski.

I have to be honest & say I'm disappointed with the OD choices. :frown: However, I'm very very happy about the OD for 2010/11!:clap:

Still, after this year's Worlds, I have to say that I'm not that interested in dance at the Olympics next year because it looks like what made me a fan these past couple of years (i.e. movement in standings) has reverted to the old days.

However, I look forward to 2010/11 with great anticipation & excitement!:rock:
 

dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Country
United-States
Actually, I expect things to become interesting by this year's worlds. The Olympics will probably be a mess, as usual.

I hope either D&W or B&A do Cajun dancing

Maybe to The Back Door
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nf0he709d1k&feature=related
Here's some dancers doing Cajun
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9KzudadmnyU&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2JAebhI5yMw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5NIcchscUzY

or zydeco dancing
I really like this tune:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ueBBP5fFn04&feature=related
Or this one
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mvXGJ8eP1B0
Here's what the dancing looks like
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c_SGKnw611k
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YKVTjCdWzrI&feature=related
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
Doris - That phrase it is recomended is another one of those vague directives of the ISU. Does it mean a skater can not do and American Shuffle because they will not understand the life along the Mississippi? I suppose an Asian team will get by because no one understands the rhythms. Yes?
 
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Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Does Jazz count as American folk music? What about Rock and Roll? Is "the twist" an American folk dance?
 

pista04

On the Ice
Joined
Feb 27, 2007
What about a more Tejano music style? Do you think that wouldn't fly since it's not "American" enough? It'd be kinda interesting to see what a team could do with a Selena mix. Haha. =D
 

MissCleo

On the Ice
Joined
Oct 27, 2005
Well, it's like the ISU wants the OD to be like the opening of a Miss Universe pageant. I agree with the other posters about N. American folk music. It would be easier to do a European dance that all of the judges would understand.

Dance spin: maybe the ice dancers would do short spins in the OD like the ones before COP ruled since it would be graded as choreography.

I;m not sure that i am ready for disco yet. A whole season of " Ah ah ah stayin alive", finger pointing, and pelvic thrusts :eek:
 

dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl
Joined
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Country
United-States
Joe& Mathman,
Yes, it is annoying that the phrase "recommended" is used. For all I know, one could get away with "American Shuffle". Obscure dances worked quite well in 2007/2008. The primary examples would be Faiella & Scali's "pizzica" which had them dressed in very authentic costumes, skating to whistly rhythmic music, and doing the same skills they used the previous year, but if the pizzica is a tarantella, as the dictionary says, it didn't look much like any tarantella filmed on the internet. (It was charming though :) ) Another obscure dance that did well was Delobel and Schoenfelder's Breton gavotte. I'm still not sure what that dance is supposed to look like, it's so obscure, but they won worlds with it.

The only examples we have of a team being penalized for a rhythm was a couple that did a blues at Lake Placid IDC the last time we had folk dance as a rhythm, and were told they had to change it (and they did). Also, Belbin and Agosto seem to have suffered from doing Appalachian folk dance. Although their costumes at Skate America were a bit reprehensible, the moves in their dance were authentic and under appreciated by the judges. They spent the season tinkering with both the costumes and the dance itself.

However, if you read further through the document, you will find that 2010/2011's OD is Rhythm's of the 50's, 60's and 70's. I would recommend saving The Twist and Rock n Roll for then! However, what I expect is that Disco will be more frequently chosen dance. Samuelson and Bates, whose disco exhibition this year was charming, are way ahead of the game for 2010/2011.
 

MissIzzy

Final Flight
Joined
Dec 26, 2006
Actually, technically, it doesn't say their own country, it says "their own traditional," in other words, one can make an argument that the dances can be tied to the specific heritage of one of the two dancers, which at least one Canadian junior team did already with an African dance tied to him. If Tanith and Ben want to avoid what they went through last time around, they can always do a Hava Nigla, or some other Jewish dance. Or look at various Canadian dance possibilities. America being the kind of country it is, they would have more ties to those than to any given "American" dance.
 

Buttercup

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 25, 2008
Another team that can stretch the definition of "their own folk/tradition" is the Zaretskis. IIRC, Roman and Sasha are originally from Minsk, so they can go with an uninspired Kalinka-type choice. They could use Israeli folk dances (or hava nagila, which I hope they'll avoid), or opt for something more middle-Eastern themed like that Shik Shak Shock OD they had in 2007-8. They really need better choreo, though.

I wonder what John and Sinead will choose to skate to. Hard to top their Scottish dance, but will they want to repeat it? Another team that has a really good folk OD as their benchmark is P/B with that gorgeous flamenco. I wonder what they'll end up doing.
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
Thanks Doris - I would love to see Samuelson & Bates 'Shuffling' along to the recording of 'Waiting for the Robert E. Lee' by Judy Garland, or an upbeat version of 'Can't Help Loving that Man of Mine' which is a big group number from Show Boat.

Almost forgot: Please, only the Austrian couple to do a Waltz. It's their original dance, and no one elses.
 
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dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Country
United-States
There are some extra odd rules in the bulk of this document. I have not yet read all of it. There are additions to the score for optional (?) elements and deductions to the score for not having the character of the dance right. This, of course, is one of my pet peeves (that such deductions are not taken)

We shall see whether they are. However, who would want to take a risk such a Brian Joubert did with Latin vocals in 2008? No deduction throughout the season, only to have one taken at Worlds.
 

mycelticblessing

Final Flight
Joined
Nov 9, 2007
It will be really interesting to see the OD next season if most of the dance teams really do use their own folk dances. I'm sure the Russian judges especially got sick listening to Kalinka over and over again in 2008. And so little teams could skate to Kalinka well.

But if most of the teams do follow this 'recommendation', does this mean no flamencos?:cry: I think the flamenco is one of the most gorgeous folk dances around.

http://isu.sportcentric.net/db//files/serve.php?id=1442

BTW, also announced, the OD for the 2010/ 2011 season is rhythms of the 50's, 60's and 70's. Disco rulez!. And rock and roll. And the twist, mashed potatoes and the watusi.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=noipgvYHQas

I'm looking forward to the dances! It sounds really cool. And I can't wait to see the costumes and the hairdos for this OD.:laugh:
 

Tammi

On the Ice
Joined
Feb 28, 2007
The only examples we have of a team being penalized for a rhythm was a couple that did a blues at Lake Placid IDC the last time we had folk dance as a rhythm, and were told they had to change it (and they did).
If I remember correctly, it was because one of the CD's during that same year was the Blues, so they couldn't use the same rhythm. It was not restricted on the original communication, but I think it was part of the clarification that was released.
 

dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Country
United-States
That sounds likely. However, the country waltz is still on the OD list for next year, while both Juniors and Seniors have waltz CD's: Westminster for the Juniors and Golden for the seniors.

I wonder whether someone will put in a question in the ISU Q&A on that, since it does not seem quite fair.

And since Ben Agosto's mother is Jewish and his father Puerto Rican, and since no one knows the origin of the name Belbin (It could be ancient Iranian, Roman or French from this website)

http://www.belbin.net/

Ben & Tanith have some very intriguing choices that other's don't have. I'd love to see them do some Puerto Rican folk dance!

This would be fun!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZO8YX9JtG5I

So would this! Reminds me a bit of the flamenco:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xdNtnEYluZ0&feature=related

Navarro (resident of the kingdom of Navarre, land now in both France & Spain) and Bommentre could perhaps do something French or Spanish.

perhaps this piece:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0O2r...1B42207A&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=64

Or this Basque dance
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yu7pYbyUb1A
 
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Audrey19

On the Ice
Joined
Jun 26, 2007
Jeez, what the hell was the ISU thinking when recommanding to use your own traditional dances? If everyone did that, it would mean no flamencos or tangos at all, but tons of Russian folk dances! Pleaso, no more Russian folk dances!
Anyway, why don't they let them do whatever they want, what's the reason for this recommandation? Many couples have already done that last time, and Belbin & Agosto were even penalized for it.
I just hope everyone will be creative with their choices and we'll see many great dances!
 

Nadine

Record Breaker
Joined
Oct 3, 2003
Lol, the only song I hope *no American* team does is the one from Deliverance, now that just creeps me out, reminds me too much of Rob Zombie's Devils Rejects!:eek: Seriously, that particular scene has been playing in my mind over & over again since I heard the OD is supposed to be "traditional/country/folk".

I have no problem with the music, it's just the atmosphere/clothing/appearance, not good, not good at all.

Other than that, I like everybody else's suggestions. :)

Oops, before I forget, I have to say that I absolutely looooooved Jane Summersett & Todd Gilles folk OD from 2008 US Nationals from the Oh Brother Where Art Thou? soundtrack. It doesn't hurt that Alisson Krauss is one of my all-time favorite singers ~ she truly does have the voice of an angel ~ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WGBU8ewhzI0
 
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