ISU - Test Event Dance -New Dances

eleonora.d · May 17, 2009

Yesterday May 16th 2009 the firs Isu Test Event Dance took place in the rink of Sesto San Giovanni (Milan), at the presence of ISU president Mr. Cinquanta.The couples presented their proposals for the new dances "Combination Dance", "Pattern Dance" and "Rhythm Dance".

"Combination Dance" was presented by

Summersett Jane – Gilles Todd (USA) – coached by Tom Dickson;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WBZgoUuQx_w

Gorshova Kristina – Butikov Vitali (RUS) – coached by Elena Chaikovskaya;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hOOItElEis8

Alessandrini Lorenza – Vaturi Simone (ITA) – coached by Roberto Pellizola.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=06SAYyM-be8

"Pattern Dance” was presented by:

Chong Andrea – Gfeller Guillame (CAN) – coached by Julie Marcotte;

Findlay Terra – Benoit Richard (FRA) – coached by Muriel Zazoui;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sIYXfglBBtU

Kolbe Tanja – Rabe Sascha (GER) – coached by Rene Lose.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gzrMEhJlblg

“Rhythm Dance” was presented by:

Chock Madison – Zuerlei Greg (USA) – coached by Marina Zueva;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fLNoB-QhbFk

Rubleva Ekaterina – Sheffer Ivan (RUS) – coached by Irina Zukh;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wAQll0Gyodw

Pajardi Isabella – Caruso Stefano (ITA) – coached by Valter Rizzo.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kFatbkicOHE

Videos were recorded by a Pajardi / Caruso fan:
http://it.youtube.com/erhanko56

dorispulaski · May 17, 2009

Thanks for posting these.

I can't say that I like any of the concepts for replacing the CD's and the OP's at all. I particularly didn't like whatever thing C&Z and R&S were supposed to be doing. It just looked like a slightly shorter FD to me.

The combination dance was at least a recognizable waltz followed by a recognizable tango, but I've got to say how does that combo make any sense at all from a performance point of view?

If one has to get rid of an event, how about skating a CD and a slightly shortenedOP back to back and getting a single grade? 2 minutes for the OP and 1:30 for the CD or so would not be longer than those so not pieces of joy.

If it has to be one of the 3 formats presented, I'd probably choose the pattern dance.

Joesitz (RIP) · May 17, 2009

^^^
Very true. I'm not sure if the Test is only for the CD this season, but what is the purpose of these Combination, Pattern and Rhythm Dances? Is it supposed to be a selection for the competitors to choose from?

I watched Summersett/Gilles and found them to be very dramatic and why put it in the Combination category?

and I watched Rubleva/Sheffer doing a Rhythm Dance which looked more like a nice flowing Fox Trot.

eleonora.d · May 17, 2009

Quoting saltypig from this thread:
http://www.goldenskate.com/forum/showthread.php?p=387547#post387547

saltypig said:
I think it's basically a done deal (I think it's going to be a hybrid CD/OD) but they just need to iron out the details:

The ISU Congress passed a resolution accepting the principle that the Ice Dance discipline will be composed of two parts commencing in the 2010-2011 competitive calendar. The Congress also adopted guidelines for the implementation which foresees testing and analysis of a new dance format for the first segment of the Ice Dance event.

The Congress decided to reduce the required elements in the free program to allow increased innovation.

http://www.isu.org/vsite/vcontent/c...-3572-4771-layout160-129918-news-item,00.html

I agree with the concept of innovating, and I am not a conservative. But I love compulsories because it is the only way you can really compare the couples techniques.

I think it is very important to have a dance which is pretty much the same for everyone and where they all have to skate the same pattern.

Many of the ice dancers already express their disappointment about this ISU decision, for example Cappellini/Lanotte:

http://absoluteskating.com/interviews/2008cappellinilanotte.htm

~tapdancer · May 17, 2009

If they decided to reduce the number of required elements in the FD, how does that affect the scoring? Lower TES scores all around? Higher PCS? Or are they going to increase the base value on the technical elements? Why did they do this anyway, I thought the idea of CoP was to make it easier to compare the couples based on elements. We already went through a time in ice dance history where the FDs were "innovative"...sometimes you couldn't even tell what was going on. Guess we're back to the dramatic histronics.

Nadine · May 17, 2009

You know I'll be honest, I don't get all this, lol! :biggrin:

Seriously, I'm rather a new fan to ice dance, only having really become a fan the past two years. Yeah, I was a fan of certain teams (aka Torville & Dean, Duschenays, Annissina & Peizerat), but only really became a fan of the sport these past few years, whom I credit Samuelson & Bates with. And just when I tried to get the basics down, they change it again! :eek:

But I'll try to keep up.

Oops, almost forgot, I enjoyed Summersett & Gilles dance, thanks for posting this!

gkelly · May 17, 2009

dorispulaski said:
Thanks for posting these.

I can't say that I like any of the concepts for replacing the CD's and the OP's at all. I particularly didn't like whatever thing C&Z and R&S were supposed to be doing. It just looked like a slightly shorter FD to me.

It looked like an OD to me. Of course, people have been saying for the past decade that the ODs look like slightly shorter FDs, so basically we're saying the same thing.

Some of the segments looked like steps I've seen in CDs, but the more advanced international CDs that I rarely see so I didn't recognize exactly where those steps came from. Is there some provision for including certain CD steps in the rhythm dance? Otherwise, what would be the difference between adopting this and just dropping the CDs and keeping the OD more or less as is, or as it was 10 years ago?

The combination dance was at least a recognizable waltz followed by a recognizable tango, but I've got to say how does that combo make any sense at all from a performance point of view?

If one has to get rid of an event, how about skating a CD and a slightly shortenedOP back to back and getting a single grade?

That's exactly what the combination dance was: two patterns of the Viennese Waltz CD (although the music that Summerset and Gilles used didn't work very well with the dance), followed by a tango OD that includes required elements of a straightline step sequence in holds, a side-by-side step sequence, and a couple of lifts.

The pattern dance seems to be essentially the old OSP format, with a side-by-side section and a small lift included within the pattern that's repeated, and longer lifts for COP points before and after the pattern.

Joesitz (RIP) · May 17, 2009

~tapdancer said:
If they decided to reduce the number of required elements in the FD, how does that affect the scoring?

It will be easier to come up with the Best Choregrapher/Coach.

dorispulaski · May 17, 2009

I would have thought, if you're going to combine a CD with a OD, that you would at least have the rhythms compatible. That is, something Latin with either a tango, samba or mambo. Or a waltz with a foxtrot or quickstep. The waltz with the tango just looked like a mismatch.

(BTW, I loved the old OSP's)

Joesitz (RIP) · May 17, 2009

dorispulaski said:
I would have thought, if you're going to combine a CD with a OD, that you would at least have the rhythms compatible. That is, something Latin with either a tango, samba or mambo. Or a waltz with a foxtrot or quickstep. The waltz with the tango just looked like a mismatch.

(BTW, I loved the old OSP's)

The Tango, I believe, is hard to categorize It is only Latin because of Argentina. The original Tango is very European and comes from the Spanish Bolero, which I believe France turned it into the Tango. However, France, Spain and Italy are latin countries so I assume it satisfies the Latin Dance. I would not, however, pair it with the ChaCha or Samba. I'll go along with the Rhumba.

dorispulaski · May 17, 2009

You're right, Joe. The rhumba would be a better choice.

eleonora.d · May 18, 2009

Joesitz said:
The Tango, I believe, is hard to categorize It is only Latin because of Argentina. The original Tango is very European and comes from the Spanish Bolero, which I believe France turned it into the Tango. However, France, Spain and Italy are latin countries so I assume it satisfies the Latin Dance. I would not, however, pair it with the ChaCha or Samba. I'll go along with the Rhumba.

I would point out that latin dances are not italian.
Tango is another thingThere are many italian influences in this dance. The Argentine Tango was born in Argentina (which is half populated by italian inmigrants) in the second half of the XVIII century and many of the tango musicians also had a strong italian roots like Piazzolla itself(son of an italian). Anyway in Italy you can also find tango between the popular ballroom dances like Mazurka, Polka (which are the italian "smooth dances" - balli lisci) and Fox Trot and Italian Valzers (which are many), eventough the italin version of the tango it's quite different from the argentinian one.

I still can't get why they have to remove the CDs. They are way too important for dance. How can you dance hybrid or free dances without showing the basic ballroom skills? If it is for television, why just don't show this?

dorispulaski · May 18, 2009

It's no wonder that you can't understand it. The ISU is IMO being hugely idiotic here.

My understanding is that the international Olympic committee has ruled that in 2014 and following Winter Olympics, ice dance can consist of 2 events only.

Since most members want to keep the CD's, it passes my understanding why the ISU doesn't say, "Fine, IOC. For the Olympics we will do 2 events. For every other event, except the GPF, we will do 3. For you we will do 2."

The ISU can pick any of the following pairs of events:

OD and FD (to be like the GPF, which is a format which the top teams are used to)
CD and FD (if they want to look more like a sport in the Olympics)
CD and OD (so they could fit more teams into the Olympics and look even more like a sport)

I do not care which of the 3 choices they pick. Every one of those choices is better than any of these 3 new formats plus the FD.

It's even more ironic that the ISU, coaches and skaters are going through this twisting for an event that only occurs every 4 years, that many federations can't even send a team to, and which is usually too highly stressed so that I don't think there has ever been an Olympics where there wasn't controversy about one of the ice dance medals.

tangos · May 18, 2009

Two Questions:

1. What planet does the ISU (FS Section) operate on that they do not listen to the majority of their constituency?
2. Did Speedy stay awake at this event?

I am sorry if I am being to sarcastic.

I thought all of the samples looked awkward. How silly is it to start to dance without music. A Waltz (Tango, Foxtrot etc. ) is not an innovative avantgarde piece of choreography that benefits from silence. I thought the equipment was broken or there was a problem with the cd and the team was about to stop and go to the ref to talk about their music (or lack thereof).

Just rewatched some of the old OSPs. M vote would be CD,OSP,FD. Why exactly does dance have to fall in to exactly the same pattern that free skate follows? And if it has to be then just change it as Doris said to two events of the existing 3 for the Olympics only!

eleonora.d · May 18, 2009

Someone in other forums pointed out that some vids are out of synch.

Mafke · May 19, 2009

dorispulaski said:
The ISU is IMO being hugely idiotic here.

My understanding is that the international Olympic committee has ruled that in 2014 and following Winter Olympics, ice dance can consist of 2 events only.

Since most members want to keep the CD's, it passes my understanding why the ISU doesn't say, "Fine, IOC. For the Olympics we will do 2 events. For every other event, except the GPF, we will do 3. For you we will do 2."

The ISU can pick any of the following pairs of events:

OD and FD (to be like the GPF, which is a format which the top teams are used to)
CD and FD (if they want to look more like a sport in the Olympics)
CD and OD (so they could fit more teams into the Olympics and look even more like a sport)

I do not care which of the 3 choices they pick. Every one of those choices is better than any of these 3 new formats plus the FD.

the ISU, coaches and skaters are going through this twisting for an event that only occurs every 4 years, that many federations can't even send a team to, and which is usually too highly stressed so that I don't think there has ever been an Olympics where there wasn't controversy about one of the ice dance medals.

I completely, totally, 1000% agree. I couldn't put it better and won't try to.

I will add my ideal format for Ice Dance:

compulsory round: 2 cds (with very different rhythms and some costume restrictions)

free round: something like the current OD but each team is free to choose it's own rhythm (or two or three closely related rhythms).

For the drama-on-ice fans, I'd create a new discipline that's something like the current FD, maybe called 'interpretive skating' (though that name is already used for something else) just for non-olympic events for the time being. I don't know what a compulsory round for that would look like (yet).

Alternate proposal. Keep the GP final OD and FD format for Ice Dance and make CDs (at least three of them) a separate event for worlds.

dorispulaski · May 19, 2009

I like all your proposals!

nylynnr · May 19, 2009

The move to eliminate CD's was done partly to save money and partly to make ice dance two events similar to the other disciplines, and also because some in skating honestly do not want them to continue at the elite level. Skate Canada, for one, proposed eliminating them several years ago, before the current go round.

Not many elite coaches and skaters will say so publicly, but some would be glad to be spared the CD's. I think what is going on is a slow death -- the old guard won't sit still for eliminating them in one fell swoop, so we're getting these rather unwieldy proposals. IMO if the ISU is going to eliminate them for senior events, then just eliminate them and be done with it. Leave the OD as it is. And if member federations are wedded to CDs, they can be all means keep them for their national events.

beep_beep · May 23, 2009

Thanks for posting this. It all looks very...argh...

I'll echo everyone here and say removing CDs is just wrong...it's not just the way of comparing different teams directly (for competition purposes), but also a nice way of comparing teams at different times.

I read that what the IOC wanted was a two-day ice dance event. How it was going to be accomplished was up to the ISU... and it doesn't look good for now...:banging::scowl:

ISU - Test Event Dance -New Dances

eleonora.d

dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl

Joesitz (RIP)

eleonora.d

~tapdancer

Nadine

gkelly

Joesitz (RIP)

dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl

Joesitz (RIP)

dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl

eleonora.d

dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl

tangos

eleonora.d

Mafke

dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl

nylynnr

beep_beep

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