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Thread: 2009/2010 Competitive Ladies

  1. #16
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joesitz View Post
    Hey MM, so the Tech Specialists have lost some power, But what happens at the conclusion of the competition. The 9 pt lutz that was underrotated and not seen by the judges now gets 12 points?
    I think it goes like this:

    Let's say the skater does a triple Lutz (base value 6.0). The caller calls it underrotated. Now the base value is the same as for a double Lutz (1.9).

    Lets say that three of the scoring judges thought the same as the caller, that it was underrotaed. But the other two judges thought it was not underrotated. If the jump was Ok but not spectacular otherwise, the three judges might give -1 or worse GOE, and the other two judges might give 0 GOE. So works out like this:

    Base value = 1.9. GOE = (-0.3 + -0.3 + -0.3 + 0.0 + 0.0) / 5 = -0.18. Total score for the element = 1.72.

    Under the old rules, all five judges would have to give -1 GOE whether they agreed with the underrotation call or not. The skater would get 1.9 - 0.30 = 1.60.

    So, not much of a difference for a solo triple jump.

    What happens to the UR call after that?
    The deduction is off the base value. The jump goes into the record as 3Lz< with a base value of 1.9 instead of 6.0. There is no further mandatory deduction.

    MHO, point scoring can be whimsical. A wrong edge take off gets an automatic -1 in addition to what the judges think,...
    I think the right way to say it is that if the caller gives an "e" call, then the judges must give the element an overall negative GOE. Each judge will give either -1, -2, or -3 depending on how bad the edge was and how good or bad other features of the jump were.

    If the caller gives a "!" then the judges can do as they please, but they are supposed to factor in the questionable edge, along with other considerations, to come up with the overall GOE mark for that element.

    (I hope I got that right. )

  2. #17
    Beliver in Sasha's Perfect Program Tinymavy15's Avatar
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    I pretty much agree with Spun Silver's entire list. I assume this is for the Olympics. Of course something crazy will happen like both Kim and Asada get seriuosly hurt and withdraw and then Miki will fall on a quad and Nakano will end up winning the whole thing, but your list seems very reasonable.

  3. #18
    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
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    still not clear to me. The Tech Specialist is still calling but the judges do not have to heed to his call but use their own eyes. No?

    And my conclusion that with wrong take-offs there is an automatic deduction (-1) included in the final score., but there is no such automatic deduction in an under rotated landing.

  4. #19
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    The GOE hit for under rotated (by more than 1/4 turn) jumps, prior to this change in the guideline, was most often -2. (The guideline for jumps under rotated by a 1/4 turn or less was -1.) So I think this change could potentially have an even greater impact than noted above, assuming some judges do not deduct 2 GOEs for under rotated jumps.

  5. #20
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joesitz View Post
    still not clear to me. The Tech Specialist is still calling but the judges do not have to heed to his call but use their own eyes. No?
    Yes, that's right.

    However, once the tech specialist makes the call, the base value of the jump is reduced from 6.0 points down to 1.9 points. The judges have nothing to do with this part.

    The only thing the judges can to is give out plus or minus GOE. They do not know what the tech specialist has called (except the name of the element). The judges use their own eyes to give out plus or minus GOEs.

    However, the GOES are only three tenths of a point in this example. So the tech specialst is still the most important. The tech specialist's call cost the skater 4.1 points, and all the judges can do is add on a few tenths of a point, plus or minus.

    And my conclusion that with wrong take-offs there is an automatic deduction (-1) included in the final score., but there is no such automatic deduction in an under rotated landing.
    There is no automatic deduction per se for a wrong-edge takeoff, like for instance there is an automatic one point deduction for a fall. And there is no reduction in base value.

    The penalty for a wrong-edge take-off is that the judges must give a negative GOE for that element, whether they agree with the call or not.

  6. #21
    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fairly4 View Post
    If the list is just for champions of worlds, olympics . I somewhat agree with the exception of rachel and alena, however if you include nationals i agree.
    as far as 2nd tier laura lepisto she already won FC
    As far as I look at it, skaters can improve and correct their mistakes during the off season so I don't count anyone out ever.

    As far as the new rule, it seems it will favor certain skaters over others.
    I am not going to name names of who it will favor over not.
    Your list should include all the skaters who are competing , because it is a competition and anything can happen, but by counting one skater/skaters out so early and that said skater(s) win, then most people are surprised when they shouldn't be. Because as I stated earlier anything can happen.
    if they judge fairly (which I doubt) anyone can win, medal.
    Of course my list is not authentic. It is just how I feel which skaters will be at their best when the chips are down. It has nothing to do with the results of Worlds

    I find some skaters excellent but not consistently. Some skates are fighters; othes do not fight and will falter.

    Fairly4 - please make up your own list of skaters who will skate their best regard;ess how the results come oudt. There will be plenty of time after GPF for predictions

  7. #22
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nylynnr View Post
    The GOE hit for under rotated (by more than 1/4 turn) jumps, prior to this change in the guideline, was most often -2. (The guideline for jumps under rotated by a 1/4 turn or less was -1.) So I think this change could potentially have an even greater impact than noted above, assuming some judges do not deduct 2 GOEs for under rotated jumps.
    To me, it is kind of hard to tell from the protocols, because severely undrrotated jumps usually have other flaws as well, which factor into the GOEs.

    Anyway, the point I was trying to make is that for underrotated solo jumps the change in rules is not so important as it is for underrotating the second jump of a triple-triple combo. (Because for a solo jump the GOE is taken off at the discounted rate of a double jump.)

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    Anyway, the point I was trying to make is that for underrotated solo jumps the change in rules is not so important as it is for underrotating the second jump of a triple-triple combo. (Because for a solo jump the GOE is taken off at the discounted rate of a double jump.)
    This is a good point.

    Underrotating the second jump of a 3-3 combination has a comparable, significant, effect on the base mark as would underrotating a solo jump. Well, a solo 3T or 3Lo, whichever the second jump of the combo was.

    But the effect of the GOE is more severe for the combination, because the GOEs, positive or negative, are at the values that apply to the higher value jump of the combination, which in this case is still a triple. So the values of the pluses and minuses will be larger.

    Under the old rules, the GOE from all judges for a combination with one underrotated jump had to be negative, even if the jump looked good from the judges' point of view and the other jump looked great. A judge might be thinking +1 or +2 for a combination, and then see the downgrade and have to change the GOE to -1. That would be a difference of 2.0 to 3.0 whole points if all the judges thought the combination was that good before learning of the downgrade.

    Under the new rules, they will now be allowed to give those +1 and +2 GOEs. Sure, the base value of the combination will still lose a significant number of points with one of the intended triples now counted as a double. But positive GOE would soften the loss of points.

    Of course, if the judges do see the underrotation, they will need to reduce the GOE from what they would have given otherwise. Most combinations with one jump underrotated will still get negative GOE, or 0 GOE at best. But the potential is there for positive GOE -- the good qualities of the rest of the combo can compensate in part for the downgrade.

  9. #24
    Tanguera feraina's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gkelly View Post
    Of course, if the judges do see the underrotation, they will need to reduce the GOE from what they would have given otherwise. Most combinations with one jump underrotated will still get negative GOE, or 0 GOE at best. But the potential is there for positive GOE -- the good qualities of the rest of the combo can compensate in part for the downgrade.
    I wonder if this will particularly benefit those who do 3R as the second jump, who haven't had any luck recently with them not being downgraded. Mao & Miki in particular. The combos look very impressive in real time, and in general more impressive than combos with 3T as last jump, and yet they get hit time and again. I would love to see these combos given a little more credit.

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joesitz View Post
    Here's how I list them based on many previous comps and showing clean or close to clean programs. The Ladies I look to be this seasons' would-be champions.

    Mao Asada
    YuNa Kim
    Joannie Rochette
    Yukuri Nakano
    Rachel Flatt
    Alena Leonova
    Sarah Meier

    Skaters I see who are not as competitive

    Laura Lepisto
    Fumie Suguri
    Elene Gedevanishvili
    Alissa Czisney
    Carolina Kostner
    Caroline Zhang
    Ashley Wagner
    Kimmie Meissner
    ...... Now I feel better about arguing with you so often.

    Lepisto was European champ. Less competitive than Sarah Meier uwhwuwhwuhw HUH?? Caroline Zhang, again - what are you thinking? She's been on par with Rachael, at least.

    Also, try to get the spelling of the names right. I mean, come on.

    Rachael Flatt
    Alissa Czisny
    Yukari Nakano

    And this was really posted today? No Sasha listed? You must think she is getting injured because other than that possibility, she's likely the most competitive we have.

    Oh, and Mirai Nagasu, our 2008 ladies national champion does in fact still exist, and will in fact be skating. Again, you must be assuming continuing injury, but nothing I have heard would indicate last season's injuries will continue into this season. She should certainly be LISTED as she is often right up there with Rachael and Caroline, beat them at '08 Nationals and elsewhere and has plenty of potential to "bring it."

    Lastly -- clean programs don't really "mean" anything anymore.
    Last edited by Particle Man; 05-28-2009 at 08:42 PM.

  11. #26
    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Particle Man View Post
    ...... Now I feel better about arguing with you so often.

    Lepisto was European champ. Less competitive than Sarah Meier uwhwuwhwuhw HUH?? Caroline Zhang, again - what are you thinking? She's been on par with Rachael, at least.

    Also, try to get the spelling of the names right. I mean, come on.

    Rachael Flatt
    Alissa Czisny
    Yukari Nakano

    And this was really posted today? No Sasha listed? You must think she is getting injured because other than that possibility, she's likely the most competitive we have.

    Oh, and Mirai Nagasu, our 2008 ladies national champion does in fact still exist, and will in fact be skating. Again, you must be assuming continuing injury, but nothing I have heard would indicate last season's injuries will continue into this season. She should certainly be LISTED as she is often right up there with Rachael and Caroline, beat them at '08 Nationals and elsewhere and has plenty of potential to "bring it."

    Lastly -- clean programs don't really "mean" anything anymore.
    hmmm. you have not made a list of youe inconsistent skaters. That's ok. Just use their few and far between good ones.

    And btw, thanks for the spelling tip. I'm just not consistent.

  12. #27
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    I would also add Miki Ando to the top list too.

  13. #28
    Custom Title christinaskater's Avatar
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    For me

    Yu-Na Kim with a slight edge
    but her chief rival is right there with her,
    Mao Asada has discovered the right combination that would score big and really put her alongside with Yu-Na. It's a grand showdown between 2 of the finest women in history in my opinion! Both ladies are exquisite in every way!


    ---------
    (spoilers of the top 2 ladies)!

    Miki Ando- this girl is in the spotlight, but not in the intense spotlight and pressure that Yu-Na or Mao has. She is a world-champion and has thrived in pressure and she certainly knows how to deliver. She has grown so much through the years and has become one of the best in the world. This girl is one of the girls who can win or medal!

    Sasha Cohen- this girl is extraordinary, she is theater on ice! I love her dramatic flair, extension, everything!

    Joannie Rochette- hometown girl, this is it for it, it's either she succumbs to the pressure of skating at home turf or she soars at the opportunity! It's make or break for her. A golden and inspired skate will spell wonders


    Carolina Kostner- love her or hate her, Carolina's jumps when landed properly and when she is in on, are some of the best in the world. She is a champion waiting to happen. Her footwork is considered one of the best if not the best among the ladies in the COP. This is another dark horse in there


    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------


    Caroline Zhang- could be one of the stars this year, but i think she is deemed for World titles after the Yu-Na and Mao era together with Mirai. If she or Mirai can transform to a lady this year and really showcase maturity , adult artistry and really transform which both ladies are capable of doing and consistently land 3-3's then Caroline can challenge the top ladies! A medal is possible if she really breaks through this season. I think very soon, she will be rewarded for her consistency and clean programs!


    Rachael Flatt is also gorgeous, hope to really see her transform this season together with Mirai!!!! Hope Frank does her wonders for Mirai, the way he did with Michelle and Evan!


    Yukari Nakano- I hope to see her comeback and show them all what she is capable of doing. I see her in the top 5 if she really skates well, who knows maybe grab a medal there!
    Last edited by christinaskater; 05-31-2009 at 09:02 AM.

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