Caroline Zhang's 2009-10 season
- Thread starter Spun Silver
- Start date
- Joined
- Feb 17, 2007
- Joined
- May 15, 2009
Yes, she's had the same programs for 20 years now.
Yes it is true that Caroline began skating to Ave Maria when she was three years old. 
- Joined
- Jul 11, 2003
My point was that Caroline's base Tech scores are fine. I hadn't realized it is the best among that illustrious group you listed, so I reiterate what can Charlene do to improve this?
Your bringing up the plus GoEs which I am not fond of, and find them to be very subjective. However, if she is getting minus GoEs then that has to be cleared up I think you are using one competition as typical and not the exceptional. You can demonstrate that with another competition?
But don't you think if she could get +GOE's on all her jumps and FW, in addition to the +GOE's she already gets on her spins and spirals, her PCS marks WILL rise, therefore placing her in very good stead to contend? She already has a base mark to compete among the best, thanks to the fact she is consistent, and maxes out points under COP by planning 7 triples and has her levels up on all non-jumping elements. What keeps her down is an area she CAN improve on by addressing +GOE on her elements-the lack of high PCS marks. Getting +GOE's on all her elements and more speed should lead an increase in the PCS mark. That's why Mao, with a lower base value can still trump Caroline-she will get more +GOEs, whicj will lead to higher PCS.
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2003
I am not a figure skating coach, so I don't know what a coach can do to bring up a skater's GOEs and PCSs. But if Caroline's coach is not able to do this, then Caroline will always be among the also-rans no matter how many triple jumps she lands.
She does not get many negative GOEs. She mostly gets 0's and a few 1's, sometimes higher on spins. But the problem is, while Caroline is getting 0's and 1's, her competiotors are getting 1's and 2's.
World Team Trophy
Asada: base value 54.47, GOEs 7.64!
Zhang: base value: 60.58, GOEs 3.74
Eric Bompard
Rochette: base value 55.09, GOEs 5.81
Asada: base value: 49.69, GOEs 1.90 ( a terrible competition for Asada -- she still finished second, with Zhang third)
Zhang: base value 53.78m GOEs 1.88
Skate Canada
Rochette: base value 57.21, GOEs 6.78
Czisney: base value 53.08, GOEs 7.21
Suguri: base value 44.80, GOEs 7.22
Zhang: base value 53.76, GOEs -1.08 (includes a -3 for a fall)
In each of Caroline's competitions, the people that she lost to scored GOE points equivalent to an extra triple Lutz or triple Axel.
Bottom line: We may not be fond of positive GOEs, but skaters need them to win. A coach must be prepared to deal with this issue.
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2003
I hope so. Those PCSs are just killing her.
World team trophy
Top four by tech score base value:
Zhang 60.58
Flatt 58.61
Rochette 54.74
Asada 54.47
Top four by program component scores
Asada 63.92
Rochette 61.44
Flatt 53.60
Zhang 52.48
- Joined
- Feb 17, 2007
Though if you notice, Caroline's GOEs are going up. Near the end of the season, I was getting this feeling that the judges were starting to warm up to her. She was even getting fewer underrotations.
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2003
Rachael had four "luckiest possible" draws, 7 neutrals, and no unlucky ones. In all it amounted to about seven tenths of a point more than the expected value.
Far more important to Rachaels' score was the fact that one element was disallowed -- a repeated spin. She lost about five points there
)She skated better and better as the season went on. I don't know if, in addition, the judges started liking her better, or if they were just giving her the marks she earned on the ice.
I think she got fewer underrotations at the end of the season because she was underrotating less.
Last edited:
I love Caroline, but I have to agree with you.
First of all, yes what was the deal with the Kawahara program? I don't know, is Lori easy to get or something? Cheaper? Seems like she must be a busy woman, she does so many programs.
Second of all, I'm tired of the same spiral sequence and spin combinations. Her spirals are so amazing, but why the same 3 over and over again? I was surprised she didn't change the sequence from last year. She does a lovely Charlotte in her exhibitions, why not add that in? Her fan spiral is also gorgeous, I'd love to see that as well.
As for spins, okay I guess she can keep her layback the way it is.. But she needs a more interesting combo spin! Camel-sit-change sit- I-spin is so boring. She's obviously capable of more intricate positions, she should add in a layback without going into the Biellmann or a donut spin or the Yu-Na camel that she does in exhibitions.
As for jump layout, I guess she might not be comfortable shaking things up too much. Understandable, Yu-Na has kept the same jump layout pretty much as well. But I don't know, Caroline needs to go into next season as a breath of fresh air, not something where we already know what's coming before she even does it.
- Joined
- Oct 22, 2005
To play devil's advocate as a skater here, there are two possible reasons for keeping the spirals and spins the same.
Reason #1 - don't mess with success - you are already getting the levels called and you've had issues with shorting revs in spins and seconds in spirals a few times, so stick with what you are comfortable with and are consistently getting called. I recall people on this board upset that Caroline got a L1 on a spiral and/or spin and it was due to short time or short revs.
Reason #2 - You are already getting L4 calls for these items and changing to include a different position in the spiral or spin is going to cause more energy expended to generate the same result in BV and may lead to a mistake elsewhere.
I've stuck with a spin for a couple seasons because it was my best option for points even though I've spent time working on different variations and continue to do so. Maybe these other variations don't flow well enough in a full FS program with 12 elements under pressure?
Agreed. We know she's capable of every position imaginable, but I don't like the I-spin no matter who does it. She should do a Y-spin that is so vertical it's an I-spin (like the one Alissa does); as far as upright positions with a leg raised go, I find that one the prettiest. Caroline should also bring back the position she did in that "Little Girls have Big Dreams, too" segment. She did it out of a camel, and it's so unique I don't even know what it's called (I've never seen anyone else do it).
I think we may see some new variations next season, though. In recent exhibitions, she's been favouring a Charlotte spiral and a variation on the Biellmann (out of a camel) that I've never seen anyone else do, either. I guess Caroline has had to make a sacrifice - more and more 7-triple LPs for less and less interesting new positions.
- Joined
- Jul 11, 2003
That's realy sad. Asada's lutz has good speed but what else? And don't forget the faster one skates into a jump, the easier it is to complete that jump. Of course, if one messes up, it is the hardest on the body to fall.
I do agree, the plus GoEs are important. However in my mind, there is so much room for subjectivity here. I can't help but think the CoP is a disguise for the 6.0 system in the scheme of things.
If there is some sort of anti-Caroline among the judges, there is nothing a coach can do about that. And we the fans, can not know which judge is giving what in those GoEs. :banging:
Asada gets nice height on her jumps and tends to have good flow out of them.
I don't think there is an anti-Caroline judging conspiracy. I think there are some very legitimate reasons listed in this thread as to why her PCS scores are low and her non-spin elements get so little GOE. I'm sure Caroline knows what the flaws in her skating are and what she needs to work on.
I don't think there is an anti-Caroline judging conspiracy. I think there are some very legitimate reasons listed in this thread as to why her PCS scores are low and her non-spin elements get so little GOE. I'm sure Caroline knows what the flaws in her skating are and what she needs to work on.
Some old Charlene Wong videos:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BmAhBlCuRwU
She won Canadian silver at 15. A little awkward looking back then, reminds me a bit of Mira Leung! Had a hard time with triples, but she had a great 2A, very high and confident!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-coQUbue9-8
First year on the pro circuit. Better flair, polish, stretch. Much improved in presentation. Nice footwork. Very good 2A's.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=izOW8fVRk3Y
She still had a great 2A at 34, wow!
Charlene had a very long competitive career between amateur and pro skating! It's amazing that she kept on improving throughout her career, too. I think what she said about working hard is true. She's obviously not particularly naturally talented with the athletic or artistic aspects of skating, but she worked hard at it, and it showed: she improved her spins and skating skills and presentation all the way through, and she kept training and attempting all the hardest jump, too (though she never seemed to be able to nail those triples).
Now if she can teach Caroline to really jump into her 2A, and skate with greater flair, attention to detail, and connection with the audience, I think that would do wonders for Caroline's skating. Also, if she can spot Caroline's weaknesses and get her to train in a more focused manner, that would help Caroline improve, too. It seems that Caroline spends so many hours at the rink each day, and doesn't always put her time to the best use.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BmAhBlCuRwU
She won Canadian silver at 15. A little awkward looking back then, reminds me a bit of Mira Leung!
Had a hard time with triples, but she had a great 2A, very high and confident! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-coQUbue9-8
First year on the pro circuit. Better flair, polish, stretch. Much improved in presentation. Nice footwork. Very good 2A's.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=izOW8fVRk3Y
She still had a great 2A at 34, wow!
Charlene had a very long competitive career between amateur and pro skating! It's amazing that she kept on improving throughout her career, too. I think what she said about working hard is true. She's obviously not particularly naturally talented with the athletic or artistic aspects of skating, but she worked hard at it, and it showed: she improved her spins and skating skills and presentation all the way through, and she kept training and attempting all the hardest jump, too (though she never seemed to be able to nail those triples).
Now if she can teach Caroline to really jump into her 2A, and skate with greater flair, attention to detail, and connection with the audience, I think that would do wonders for Caroline's skating. Also, if she can spot Caroline's weaknesses and get her to train in a more focused manner, that would help Caroline improve, too. It seems that Caroline spends so many hours at the rink each day, and doesn't always put her time to the best use.
I think the best attribute of Asada's skating is how she has such soft, flowing landings on her jumps, as if she's 'gently stroking the ice' (to quote Dick Button). Interestingly, I've noticed skaters tend to belong to either the piano camp or the strings camp-- Caroline of course being in the latter; and Flatt and Asada being in the former. Then I realized, whoa, Flatt and Asada share quite a few qualities on the ice-- being known for lyrical piano programs, having an ethereal, gentle quality on the ice, and strong axels (before everyone jumps on this, let me assure you I DO realize they are in different leagues entirely)...and sometimes putting me to sleep with it all lol
As for Caroline, I am also a little tired of her spins and spirals! Always wondered why she didn't perform so many of her gorgeous elements that she does for galas in competition. And why did she stop performing that interesting spin she used to do as a junior-- you know, that one
Also, I think Caroline needs to train with a mime.
As for Caroline, I am also a little tired of her spins and spirals! Always wondered why she didn't perform so many of her gorgeous elements that she does for galas in competition. And why did she stop performing that interesting spin she used to do as a junior-- you know, that one
Also, I think Caroline needs to train with a mime.
Last edited:
And why did she stop performing that interesting spin she used to do as a junior-- you know, that one
I saw her do it only once more in an exhibition program as a senior, and the spin traveled -- the traveling stood out because she's normally very centered, especially in the layback. I think that spin requires great flexibility and is maybe even harder to do than the pearl, especially now that her legs are much longer. Probably she feels like she already has level 4 layback and combo spins that get very high GOE's, so it's better to try to spend her time and energy working on other parts of her programs.
BTW, Charlene was apparently also a good figures skater, she usually did the best in figures, less well in the short, and the worst in the long. So maybe she'll get Caroline to train more figures, too, which should help Caroline's skating a lot.
- Joined
- Oct 22, 2005
As for Caroline, I am also a little tired of her spins and spirals! Always wondered why she didn't perform so many of her gorgeous elements that she does for galas in competition. And why did she stop performing that interesting spin she used to do as a junior-- you know, that one
Probably because in galas/exhibitions, she doesn't have to count revs in position for them to count.
- Joined
- Jul 11, 2003
I don't like the use of the word 'conspiracy' which I didn't and do not use. I don't believe anyone group is out to put Caroline down. But it is only natural that individual judges have their own mindset on going overboard for some skaters and lack interest in others. i just want to know who they are.
I'm sure Asada also knows the flaws in her skating all last year including the big flutz. and she knows what she has to work on. I know the topic is Caroline but the over repeated message goes for all skaters.
Similar threads
