And why did she stop performing that interesting spin she used to do as a junior-- you know, that one
Wait, which one? :scratch:
Caroline Zhang's 2009-10 season
- Thread starter Spun Silver
- Start date
Wait, which one? :scratch:
What, no way! Asada has way better skating skills and speed, and the world's awesomest ladies' footwork sequences, and Flatt... And while Flatt has good solid jumps, she's no jump prodigy like Asada, who had a 3A and two 3/3's at Flatt's age, while Flatt's one 3/3 hasn't been consistent for a while. And frankly, I can't imagine Flatt skating with this much flair any time soon, I'm not even sure that it's in her personality:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k7_bJnZDbqo
There's so much more to Asada's skating than jumping too, and I have yet to those qualities in Rachael's programs.
If I had to pick a young skater who most resembles Asada, I'd say Mirai Nagasu. While she doesn't have Asada's best jumps, she has good height on her jumps including the 2A, and she has Asada's lightness and quickness of feet on ice. I think Asada has the best skatings skills in the world (with Yu-na a close second), and Mirai the best among US ladies. Mirai also has Asada's natural grace, and a sense of flair -- or at least I feel like once she gets more mature choregraphy and can express them properly, she will be able to develop a certain sense of flair, as it seems to be in her personality. I think Mirai is going to be a very dangerous competitor if Frank Carroll can help her fix the under-rotations and make her mentally stronger and more stable.
On the other hand, Caroline is more like a young Yu-na, especially the Yu-na who skated to Lark Ascending -- a certain sensibility for lyrical, subtle music, an artistic sole, and a delicate physical constitution. What Caroline desperately needs is coaching to help her become a stronger athlete, this is after all a sport not a dance performance. Orser did a fantastic job in helping Yu-na to become a less delicate athlete, fewer injuries, greater stamina, better conditioning in general.
Last edited:
- Joined
- May 15, 2009
Thanks feraina - I enjoyed your analysis very much. Mirai , if it works out - and she matures in the direction you have pointed to could be a real contender for 2014 and sooner. BTW, I love that clip and I am not always so fond of Gala programs. It is great and Mao can be so charming. I think that is an area as you mentioned that Rachael needs to work on.
As to Caroline - I just hope she has the best season possible.
As to Caroline - I just hope she has the best season possible.
Some old Charlene Wong videos:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BmAhBlCuRwU
She won Canadian silver at 15. A little awkward looking back then, reminds me a bit of Mira Leung!Had a hard time with triples, but she had a great 2A, very high and confident!
Thanks for the clips.
Wow, one of the best 2As I've seen - that was obviously her money jump. Good artistry, too, for a 16-year-old (she looks so much older than Caroline at the same age!
), and good speed. Her swiftness over the ice reminds me a lot of Mirai.If Charlene can impart even half of what she had in her 2A and SS to Caroline, the coaching change would've been worth it.
- Joined
- Feb 17, 2007
I'm no fan of the IJS, but I understand some of the logic. Let's say you run an illegal gambling operation and you want to bribe a judge to give a skater higher or lower marks than he/she deserves. How do you do it? Well, the short answer is ........... you can't. With anonomous judging, you can't be sure the judge you bribed held up his end of the bargain. So you can't make a deal.
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2003
^ There are two problems with that analogy. First, the judges and the gamblers are all in it together. The people that the ISU is supposedly shielding the judges from are the bosses of the judges own federation -- like Le Gougne and Gailhaguet.
Second, the judges and gamblers know which judge gave which marks, as do all the ISU bigwigs. The only people who don't know are us.
Second, the judges and gamblers know which judge gave which marks, as do all the ISU bigwigs. The only people who don't know are us.
- Joined
- May 15, 2009
All good points but why bother with judges - there a much more direct way under CoP :yes:
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2003
This is what I think.
What caused the Salt Lake City scandal, and other judging improprieties over the years, was the shenanigans of the various national federations. At the 2002 Olympics the French federation boss (Gailhaguet), the Russian federation boss (Piseev), and especially Piseev's wife (Alla Shekhovtsova), who is big in ice dance, who is a close friend of Le Gougne, and who was on the ice dance judging panel at the Olympics, tried to cook up a business-as-usual scheme. When it all fell apart, the ISU was -- I started to say, ashamed of itself
-- raked over the coals by the IOC.Cinquanta's response was first, the ridiculous charade of secret judging. This does not prevent cheating, it just makes it less provable to the public and gives the ISU a greater degree of plausible denial.
But second, the transfer of power to the technical caller. The point being that the technical panel works directly for the ISU, while the judges work each for his/her own federation. Therefore the member federations -- those wicked schemers
-- have less pull with the technical specialists than they do with the judges. In principle it ought to be harder to bribe a tech caller than to bully a judge.The cynical way to look at it is that the IJS is a power grab by Speedy, designed to augment his own position at the expense of the federations.
(I, for one, am not cynical, however.
)
Last edited:
- Joined
- Feb 17, 2007
This is what I think.
Therefore the member federations -- those wicked schemers
So if I'm getting all this - it is now more difficult to influence the outcome of a competition by throwing money around.
- Joined
- May 15, 2009
Um....me thinks it is easier than at anytime in skating history to control the outcome. that is why Orser was not yelling at a judge last season. He was yelling at the TC
Thanks mm for your post - I agree and think the whole thing is spooky. Best hope is for another scandal and for IOC to boot Cinquanta and oversee ISU til it is run better. Just my opinion
Last edited:
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2003
I don't think that throwing money around was ever a big issue.
I think it was more jockeying for power within the figure skating establishment, trying to make yourself into a godfather (kiss my ring if you want a gold medal), trying to one-up the other guy, that sort of thing.
- Joined
- May 15, 2009
That is true except at SLC there was some character involved who apparently paid a good deal of money to make sure the Russian Pair would win the gold. Maybe he was Armenian or from some former Soviet republic. I believe the guy was tried and given jail time. Or am I confused?
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2003
^ Alimzham Tokhtakhonov (aka "the Taiwanese" ). A small time hood involved in drugs and gun smuggling. Supposedly he was an acquaintance of Marina Anissina's mother.
He was arrested on other charges in Italy, but I don't think anything ever came of the suspicians about the Olympics.
(However, he had been charged earlier with the crime of trying to fix beauty contests
hwell:, so you never know. )
). A small time hood involved in drugs and gun smuggling. Supposedly he was an acquaintance of Marina Anissina's mother. He was arrested on other charges in Italy, but I don't think anything ever came of the suspicians about the Olympics.
(However, he had been charged earlier with the crime of trying to fix beauty contests
hwell:, so you never know. )
- Joined
- Jul 11, 2003
WOWThis is what I think.
What caused the Salt Lake City scandal, and other judging improprieties over the years, was the shenanigans of the various national federations. At the 2002 Olympics the French federation boss (Gailhaguet), the Russian federation boss (Piseev), and especially Piseev's wife (Alla Shekhovtsova), who is big in ice dance, who is a close friend of Le Gougne, and who was on the ice dance judging panel at the Olympics, tried to cook up a business-as-usual scheme. When it all fell apart, the ISU was -- I started to say, ashamed of itself
Cinquanta's response was first, the ridiculous charade of secret judging. This does not prevent cheating, it just makes it less provable to the public and gives the ISU a greater degree of plausible denial.
But second, the transfer of power to the technical caller. The point being that the technical panel works directly for the ISU, while the judges work each for his/her own federation. Therefore the member federations -- those wicked schemers
The cynical way to look at it is that the IJS is a power grab by Speedy, designed to augment his own position at the expense of the federations.
(I, for one, am not cynical, however.
Good post!!!
- Joined
- May 15, 2009
^ Alimzham Tokhtakhonov (aka "the Taiwanese"
He was arrested on other charges in Italy, but I don't think anything ever came of the suspicians about the Olympics.
(However, he had been charged earlier with the crime of trying to fix beauty contests
Yes, and he is now working for Donald Trump with the title "pageant consultant
- Joined
- Jul 11, 2003
But has the the tech caller swore allegiance to the ISU or to his own Federation? For example if the US gets a tech caller position in 2010 Worlds will it lean ever so slightly to the US Lady who is necessary to restore 3 places at the 2011 Worlds? (this is not conspiracy, but it is favoritism)This is what I think.
But second, the transfer of power to the technical caller. The point being that the technical panel works directly for the ISU, while the judges work each for his/her own federation. Therefore the member federations -- those wicked schemers
Fans: It's just an example, substitute any country other than the US if you prefer, but the question stands on its own.
- Joined
- May 15, 2009
Getting back to the topic of Caroline:
I hope the tech caller at US Nationals this year will be Caroline's mother
Last edited:
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2003
Quite so. I don't see any possibility of ever getting rid of personal feelings, national bias, etc. Tech callers are human being just like judges are.
There is also the "cultural preference" thing. This is especially evident in ice dance. The European (especially Russian) style is to go for theatrical displays, while in North America the ballroom influence is more prominent (think Virtue and Moir.)
One corollary is that North American teams pay more attention to steps and edging, while European dancers have greater flow and speed.
Which style do the judges like better? It depends on which tradition the judge or caller grew up with.
- Joined
- May 15, 2009
That is a very good point and a real possibilty Joe.
What is scarier to me is that the tech caller can be in the pocket of higher up ISU officials or even the top dog himself.
Why is it that there is talk about hi-def instant replays - but they will be kept secret (or out of the public's view)?
Can you imagine a close battle in Vancouver between Yuna and Mao? And that the OGM would be determined by a tech call that many could not see? Or agree with what they did see on their TV watching at home. It is like ISU is setting themselves up for a fall with this secrecy business. So much of CoP is still subjective and I would feel bad for either Yuna or Mao if they lost the OGM based on some phantom call by the tech caller.
- Joined
- Feb 5, 2009
Caroline posted in her twitter that her music is something lyrical.
Similar threads
