Caroline Zhang's 2009-10 season

DarkestMoon said:

Well, IMO Caroline being disgusted with her scores gives an impression that she doesn't realize how severe her poor jumping technique is effecting her scores. If the judges had their way, they would have been more harsh because I don't think there has ever been an elite skater with her technique before.

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I used to think that as well...does Caroline not realize how bad her jumps are? After reading snippets of interviews with her (especially the transcript of the press conference after either last season's TEB or JW), it is clear that she does. In that press conference, she listed precisely the same issues that we kvetch about in regards to her skating as things that she needs to fix. I'm paraphrasing, but she said something like, I know I have to fix these things, but I'm not sure if I have enough time. So, it's obvious that she knows her technique stinks, but how she's going about addressing it is a different matter entirely.

As for Mirai, I'm sure she's real honest and down to earth and all that. It's just that I watched the entire press conference in which she made those remarks about Sasha's return, and I just picked up that phoney vibe from her - like, um, I'm just trying to be totally different from the rest of the pack. You know, I'm, like, a little edgier.

Actually, none of them came off that well to me in that press conference except for Alissa and Rachael. Those two seemed like the nicest and most honest without being phoney.

Well, I didn't see the Olympic press conference so I can't really comment on that part. But I think it's actually smart of Zhang to wait until after Vancouver to fix her jumps. However, if she's actually hoping to make the team, she's not going to do it unless Flatt, Czisny and Wagner all make mistakes.

R.D. said:

However, if she's actually hoping to make the team, she's not going to do it unless Flatt, Czisny and Wagner all make mistakes.

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Results from previous seasons tell a different story. We'll leave Czisny out because there's no such thing as an Alissa who doesn't make mistakes. Even so, it remains to be seen if the judges at Nats will be inclined to mark her favourably after they crowned her last season and basically kissed three Olympic spots goodbye.

I think Wagner can totally beat Zhang if she's able to skate cleanly and fix her UR and other jump issues. However, that's easier said than done and I'm sure Caroline scored better than Ashley throughout the whole of last season.

I think Flatt's assured of an Olympic spot, but we all know who did better than who when both of them had roughly similar technical content at multiple international competitions last season. But if both Rachael and Caroline are perfectly clean at Nats next year, and assuming Caroline does well at her remaining events leading up to Nats, will the judges place Caroline above Rachael knowing that the former has better scoring potential internationally? I'm thinking not, but we'll see.

The one I can see totally thrashing everyone else if she's got her issues sorted out and is clean is Mirai.

R.D. said:

But I think it's actually smart of Zhang to wait until after Vancouver to fix her jumps. However, if she's actually hoping to make the team, she's not going to do it unless Flatt, Czisny and Wagner all make mistakes.

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I agree with your sentiments - but waiting another season goes against everything I have ever heard about sports training. Most athletes get to a point of no return when it comes to fixing certain technical problems.

The old "muscle memory" thing is NOT a myth just as the saying "old habits are hard to break" is more than an expression.

Unfortunately Caroline just went through a big growth spurt and had to deal with a few injuries so perhaps she had no other choice but to wait until after this season.

I wish her the best and whether she ever will seriously commit to addressing her technical problems is her decision. But there is no way around the fact that the longer she waits the less likely she is to be successful.

janetfan said:

I wish her the best and whether she ever will seriously commit to addressing her technical problems is her decision. But there is no way around the fact that the longer she waits the less likely she is to be successful.

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Good point, you're right. But I don't envy her position right now. If she went to work RIGHT NOW to fix her jumps, she can kiss any chance of Vancouver goodbye, and she'd have to focus on Sochi instead. But I get the feeling that by abandoning that effort, she wants a legit shot at the Team. If she doesn't do anything about her technique, her chances are actually better IMO, but as I alluded to before, she'd have to depend on others' mistakes (and I think there'll be plenty of them, too)- and here's the key part- without making any herself.

But without major improvement on technique, she's not going to get the scores she's hoping for, either nationally OR internationally. In Vancouver, even error-free she'd be good enough for maybe 5th at best. Possibly 4th if it's anything like Torino with the faves messing up big time.

Andalusia said:

I feel exactly the opposite. If she's really unhappy with her scores, I appreciate that she doesn't plaster on a shite-eating grin pretending to be happy with them when she really isn't. I detest phoniness, which is a vibe I sometimes pick up from Mirai, although that is probably totally unfounded.

If Caroline was going around sassing and giving attitude to strangers and adults, then that's a different story.

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Well, what's wrong with being disappointed? It's no secret to any of us that that score wasn't the one that Caroline was aiming for. If she expressed anything other than disappointment, I'd say she wasn't ambitious. And frankly, I don't necessarily believe she's blaming the judges. I mean, that's certainly possible, but we don't know that. She could just be disappointed with herself and not having come far enough.

krenseby said:

Well, what's wrong with being disappointed? It's no secret to any of us that that score wasn't the one that Caroline was aiming for. If she expressed anything other than disappointment, I'd say she wasn't ambitious. And frankly, I don't necessarily believe she's blaming the judges. I mean, that's certainly possible, but we don't know that. She could just be disappointed with herself and not having come far enough.

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Maybe, but I don't think that's it. She looked happy until the scores came up - then annoyed. To me, it looked like she thought she did well and was p.o.ed that the judges didn't see it her way. I'm more used to seeing athletes look grim as soon as their skate ends because they KNOW they messed up. And that seems more mature to me.

I think Caroline is a beautiful skater with beautiful spins and beautiful spirals. She has a strong presence on the ice and she is very musical as well. Unfortunately, she has learned to develop a awkward jumping technique. I am not so fond of her jumping technique either, but it does not violate skating rules just like leg wraps. I would like her to keep on working cleaning up her jumps with that technique. Why not be remembered as the beautiful skater with the best mule kick jumps, with best spins and the best spirals. I do not want her to hear negative comments and criticism all the time and loose her confidence.

Go Rachael, Go Caroline, Go Alissa, Go Mirai, Go Alexe, Go Sasha!!!

There's a special spot in my heart for Caroline and Mirai because they're basically the same age as my little brother (just a few weeks' difference) and even taking into consideration that girls mature faster than boys, I don't think their behaviour is particularly bratty/childish/affected/etc. My brother has definitely done far worse than wrinkle his nose at a distasteful mark, or be more than a little bit insincere in public.

If I remember correctly, Ashley and Rachel are at least a year older, which I think could make a difference to the way they present themselves in public. I mean, when you see all these kids compete in the same senior field I think it's easy to forget how young some of them really are...and that kids do some idiotic things sometimes!

Having said that, I would definitely agree that seniority isn't everything, and that anything can happen. (I was a Tara Lipinski fan when she was around.)

Andalusia said:

Unfortunate music choice (I detest Miley Cyrus!), but the programme features everything we love about Caroline's skating and all that we don't. Perhaps it's just me, but doesn't it look as if she moves more surely across the ice now? And I'm surprised she got to skate in the gala as she finished fourth; I don't recall the fourth-place finisher skating an exhibition at last year's TEB.

I'm still waiting for feraina's review of Caroline's LP, and her insights into Caroline's condition and state of mind both now and during the performance of her LP, if she has any.

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I'm at a conference and the hotel internet connection sucks, so I'm very behind on everything.

Thanks for posting her exhibition, it's very nice! I agree that she's moving more surely across ice, and I don't know if it's the music or her new found maturity, but she's skating with a little more *passion* in that exhibition, which is very refreshing to see. It's nice to see her really express some emotion, and not just "pretty" or "cute" as she's been doing since a little girl. Now, if only she can bring that new found maturity into her competitive programs too!

I had a good second look at the 3S and 3R that she was downgraded on in the LP, and honestly they didn't look that UR'ed to me. I believe that the tech caller is the same as the very strict one that downgraded a bunch of her jumps and Kimmie's and Miki's at SA two seasons ago -- remember that first GP when everyone was shocked by how harshly the new downgrade rules were enforced? But of course strict callers is part of skating life, and as Caroline said in the press conference herself afterwards, she needs to go home and figure that part out, so that she doesn't run into trouble with strict callers in the future. That said, I do think she skated her LP dispiritedly, very noticeably so compared to her SP. She had no attack, and she looked like she just wanted to get it over with ASAP. Part of that maybe is the program. I think it's as wrong for her as Mao's LP is wrong for Mao. Aargh! Caroline said on FB that she learned never to drink coffee on an empty stomach again, so maybe that really affected her LP. Also, she was very jetlagged in Paris and had very little sleep both nights before the competitions (hence all that coffee), so that was really unfortunate. I hope she and her team/doctor find a way to deal with jetlag better at future competitions. At least Vancouver is the same time zone as CA if she makes it there.

I thought her SP was actually well skated and well choreographed. She can stand to do that step sequence a lot faster; maybe Lori can re-choreograph it for her without so many stops and pauses. She needs to move right through her footwork. I thought she did that a lot better in her new exhibition -- I was happy to see her improvement on that front (see around 2:25 for example).

I think she will come back at SC stronger than TEB. TEB was already a significant improvement over GW. But she better make significant improvements soon, because I think the other American girls will bring it in the upcoming GP's. I doubt she can do too much with her jumps this season, but she should really, really, really work on skating with more speed and power. She didn't look slow at all in that exhibition, for instance. And she also *smiled*. It's so nice to see her smile while skating, when I first saw that, I thought, wow, I really missed that. So I think if only she would skate faster and with a bit more joy, that could really go a long way.

Finally, I have voiced my opinion before but I'll say it again, I think she expresses such disconsolation at her scores because she's a perfectionist, because she's unhappy with her own performance, not because she's unhappy with the judges. I also have that type of perfectionist personality, and I could easily imagine myself reacting the same way in that situation. The only reason I wouldn't do it in public is because I'm more than twice her age. Haha. She just hasn't learned how to hide it quite so well yet.

feraina said:

I
I had a good second look at the 3S and 3R that she was downgraded on in the LP, and honestly they didn't look that UR'ed to me. I believe that the tech caller is the same as the very strict one that downgraded a bunch of her jumps and Kimmie's and Miki's at SA two seasons ago -- remember that first GP when everyone was shocked by how harshly the new downgrade rules were enforced? .

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Not correct - the TS at '07 SA was Jayson Peace and the TS at TEB was Katerina Kambeska. None of the members in the technical panel at TEB were at that Skate America you mentioned.

feraina said:

I'm at a conference and the hotel internet connection sucks, so I'm very behind on everything.


I had a good second look at the 3S and 3R that she was downgraded on in the LP, and honestly they didn't look that UR'ed to me. I believe that the tech caller is the same as the very strict one that downgraded a bunch of her jumps and Kimmie's and Miki's at SA two seasons ago -- remember that first GP when everyone was shocked by how harshly the new downgrade rules were enforced? .

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The technical callers were not the same at the 2 events you mention (SA 2007 and here at TEB 2009).

Thanks, feraina. You actually know Caroline, so I appreciate any insights you share on her. You mentioned that you were in a hotel room earlier, so I suspected that was why you didn't immediately post your thoughts on Caroline's performance after the ladies' LP.

I do give Caroline credit, though - she's actually made me like a Miley Cyrus song! Practically all my friends go ga-ga over her, and I'm the only one who doesn't. I can see why Caroline chose the song, though; it seems to have been written just for her!

I can almost see it
That dream I am dreaming
But there's a voice inside my head saying
"You'll never reach it"

Every step I'm taking
Every move I make feels
Lost with no direction
My faith is shaking

But I gotta keep trying
Gotta keep my head held high

There's always gonna be another mountain
I'm always gonna wanna make it move
Always gonna be a uphill battle
Sometimes I'm gonna have to lose

Ain't about how fast I get there
Ain't about what's waiting on the other side
It's the climb

Aside from how dreadfully she skated her LP (which I now blame on the coffee ), I must say that Caroline's expressiveness improved exponentially at this competition. The SP was just oozing with attitude, and the head move she does at 1:22 to 1:23 in this exhibition is just so subtly gorgeous.

feraina said:

Finally, I have voiced my opinion before but I'll say it again, I think she expresses such disconsolation at her scores because she's a perfectionist, because she's unhappy with her own performance, not because she's unhappy with the judges. I also have that type of perfectionist personality, and I could easily imagine myself reacting the same way in that situation. The only reason I wouldn't do it in public is because I'm more than twice her age. Haha. She just hasn't learned how to hide it quite so well yet.

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In your opinion, if Caroline is such a perfectionist, why hasn't she addressed some of the criticisms in her skating..ie., .speed, jump technique. If she really wants to move up the elite ladder and truly is a perfectionist, she will address some of those areas of her skating...not just to please the judges, but more importantly, to please herself.

stella8h8chang said:

There's a special spot in my heart for Caroline and Mirai because they're basically the same age as my little brother (just a few weeks' difference) and even taking into consideration that girls mature faster than boys, I don't think their behaviour is particularly bratty/childish/affected/etc. My brother has definitely done far worse than wrinkle his nose at a distasteful mark, or be more than a little bit insincere in public.

If I remember correctly, Ashley and Rachel are at least a year older, which I think could make a difference to the way they present themselves in public. I mean, when you see all these kids compete in the same senior field I think it's easy to forget how young some of them really are...and that kids do some idiotic things sometimes!

Having said that, I would definitely agree that seniority isn't everything, and that anything can happen. (I was a Tara Lipinski fan when she was around.)

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Ages of the above:
Wagner: 5.16.91 currently 18 yrs old (college freshman)
Flatt 7.21.92 currently 17 yrs old and 14 months younger than Wagner (high school senior, attends public high school)
Nagasu 4.16.93 currently 16 yrs old and 23 months younger than Wagner (high school junior, home/online schooled)
Zhang 5.20.93 currently 16 yrs old and 25 months younger than Wagner (also a high school junior, home/online schooled)

I am not sure why there is this constant "Zhang is so young"....yeah, she's 16. And most 16 yr old girls are reasonably mature (perhaps alittle boy crazy at times LOL!, but they have basic social skills down). Zhang does online/homeschooling and IIRC, has done so since her freshman year. Perhaps some of her "youngness" comes from her lack of interaction with her peers at school. Not to get into the home school vs brick and mortar schooling issue for athletes...that has been addressed a number of times, but I do believe that it does affect the social development of kids. JMO. And perhaps, this is Caroline's personality as well. She is just "young" at heart, giving her the benefit of the doubt.

I didn't know Wagner was 18. I kept thinking she was 17 and was going to ask when is her 18th birthday.

Nigel said:

In your opinion, if Caroline is such a perfectionist, why hasn't she addressed some of the criticisms in her skating..ie., .speed, jump technique. If she really wants to move up the elite ladder and truly is a perfectionist, she will address some of those areas of her skating...not just to please the judges, but more importantly, to please herself.

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Yeah, I know. But being a perfectionist doesn't mean that you can make yourself perfect. I think she's very frustrated with her own skating, but doesn't really know how to make things better, at least with the resources she has. I really think that she should get herself a new coach and just revamp all her technique. I think she looks so unhappy so often while skating because she's feeling frustrated. I feel like Mao has a similar issue. She's also a perfectionist, and yet can't seem to get things together despite her enormous talent. I have this horrible feeling that Caroline will finish off the Olympic team come National's, and Mao will finish off the podium come Olympics. It's pretty depressing to be either skater's fans these days, and doubly depressing if you're both, like myself.

Andalusia said:

I can almost see it
That dream I am dreaming
But there's a voice inside my head saying
"You'll never reach it"

Every step I'm taking
Every move I make feels
Lost with no direction
My faith is shaking

But I gotta keep trying
Gotta keep my head held high

There's always gonna be another mountain
I'm always gonna wanna make it move
Always gonna be a uphill battle
Sometimes I'm gonna have to lose

Ain't about how fast I get there
Ain't about what's waiting on the other side
It's the climb.

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Wow, the lyrics are so apt, thanks for typing them up! Especially that line: "Lost with no direction, my faith is shaking". I really feel bad for her. All that promise she showed as a budding junior skater...

feraina said:

Yeah, I know. But being a perfectionist doesn't mean that you can make yourself perfect. I think she's very frustrated with her own skating, but doesn't really know how to make things better, at least with the resources she has. I really think that she should get herself a new coach and just revamp all her technique. I think she looks so unhappy so often while skating because she's feeling frustrated. I feel like Mao has a similar issue. She's also a perfectionist, and yet can't seem to get things together despite her enormous talent. I have this horrible feeling that Caroline will finish off the Olympic team come National's, and Mao will finish off the podium come Olympics. It's pretty depressing to be either skater's fans these days, and doubly depressing if you're both, like myself.

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Caroline has had poor technique on her jumps for many years. I think her growth spurt has not helped to correct those problems.....though with greater body strength through increased muscle mass, she should be able to start to make strides in correcting the jumps. As Rochette has acknowledged and most good coaches will also acknowledge, it is, at the least, a two year process. So, at this point in time for this particular season, probably not the approach Zhang and her coaches would take.

Supposing that the Zhang team has heard this feeback for several years, I wonder why they have not added a jump coach to Caroline's daily lessons. It isn't so much about replacing Miss Li, but rather adding someone to Caroline's team that can address the technique problems as it does seem that Miss Li and Caroline do get along. Sign of a good coach is their assessing their own weaknesses (and having awareness that no one knows everything or can teach everything) and bringing in others to fill those gaps. But the student also needs to be receptive to advice and willing to put in the hard work to make changes. As we all know, change isn't easy (going outside your comfort zone so to speak).

After this season, Caroline is going to have to really work hard at fixing her problems. Right now, if she can get back into the form she was in at 4CC and World Team Trophy, she will certainly make the Olympic team. AND she will help win back our 3 spots at the 2011 Worlds.