Caroline Zhang's 2009-10 season

janetfan · Jun 10, 2009

Joesitz said:
One has to realize that there are Teaching Coaches, and Master Coaches. I do not know who taught YuNa the various elements when she first started training as a competitive figure skating.

It was Priscilla Hill who taught Johnny Weir the elements of competitive figure skating including his fabulous edging and flow over the ice, up to his remarkable 3A. She then brought him to TT to polish it all up.)
Why YuNa chose Orser, I do not know, but he has given her a sense of musicality and showmanship as well as a most promising Oly champ.
Is he yet a Master Coach? We'll see with Adam Rippon.

Some good points. Orser - besides being known as "Yuna's coach"

is supposed to be known for being good at teaching/correcting axle problems.
I am impressed by how he has handled Yuna. She has made improvements each season with him and her skating at WC this season did receive high praise from many of the most influential and respected voices in skating. A few dissenting voices at GS does not carry the same weight as remarks form Brian B., Michelle, Kristi, Button, Hamilton, ect.
I agree that Rippon's progress will give us a better insight into Orser's validity as a top coach. If Rippon shows real progress - and lays down two 3A's at Natls next season he will be in the mix for a podium spot.

As to Caroline - hope it works out well. I think she should have done this last season - maybe sacrificed the season by working on the aspects of her skating that need improvement. She can still do that and begin to focus her goal on 2014.
As to coaches - it is interesting to think she needs a Russian coach. Exactly how many OGM's and WC's have Russian Ladies won in the long history of figure skating? Can we count them all on one hand ? If we give them credit for success with the Japanese skaters then it is obviously fair to give Orser the same credit for his work with Yuna.

bekalc · Jun 10, 2009

I have to agree that Orser could be a Tarasova. But even so, so what. A Tarasova ability to help top skaters handle the pressure and live up to their potential should not be devalued.

No, Yuna moved to Orser after she won the junior title(2005-06 season)

Not just the Junior title she was Senior Grand Prix Final champ when she went to him. She was struggling I hear all that season with injuries, but still.

But I do think it's forgotten that Yu-na came to Brian gift wrapped on a silver platter with great technique and championship mettle already. Girl was undefeated at the junior level the year before. She has improved under Orser, in terms of skating skills and artistry. But she would have improved under Carroll, Tarasova, all of them. I'm sure.

I do think Adam Rippon will tell more of the tale, but I must say I was impressed with how much Rippon had improved at Junior Worlds. He went from someone who was very inconsistent with the 3 axel all season long, to very consistent with it at Junior Worlds and a much improved one. Thats' got to be attributed to Orser.

antmanb · Jun 10, 2009

bekalc said:
I have to agree that Orser could be a Tarasova. But even so, so what. A Tarasova ability to help top skaters handle the pressure and live up to their potential should not be devalued.

Not just the Junior title she was Senior Grand Prix Final champ when she went to him. She was struggling I hear all that season with injuries, but still.

But I do think it's forgotten that Yu-na came to Brian gift wrapped on a silver platter with great technique and championship mettle already. Girl was undefeated at the junior level the year before. She has improved under Orser, in terms of skating skills and artistry. But she would have improved under Carroll, Tarasova, all of them. I'm sure.

I do think Adam Rippon will tell more of the tale, but I must say I was impressed with how much Rippon had improved at Junior Worlds. He went from someone who was very inconsistent with the 3 axel all season long, to very consistent with it at Junior Worlds and a much improved one. Thats' got to be attributed to Orser.

I have to agree with this - as Joe also said in his post, Rippon will be a good guinea pig to see what Orser's coaching ability is really like (although i would argue that he too has gone to him with great technical abilities and better than average presntation skills - though the 3A progress under Orser is certainly impressive).

I don't think there's anything wrong with Orser being the next Tarasova but i just balk everytime someone screams his name when one of the ladies announces she is switching coaches because i am left scratching my head asking why for the very reason you posted above. Yuna is a very special and talented skater, she was and always would be IMO, it doesn't matter what coach she had - she broked out as a junior without the "top coaching" found outside Korea, she wasn't devoid of presentation skills (like Yagudin was pre Tarasova), so clearly she was destined for the top, Orser or no Orser. She was plagued with injuries up until last seasno (yet another possible reasno for skating with greater joy).

I just find it all a bit Robin Wagner - but in a way worse because at least Wagner was Hughes coach from the start. One winning student does not, a good coach make, especially (in Orsers case) when you get that student will a complete technical and artisitc package.

Ant

bekalc · Jun 10, 2009

I suspect with Orser that he did manage to do something that impressed Yu-na to even ask him to be her coach. And I do think the fact that Yu-na is handling the pressure of being Korea's Princess Diana is a big testament in many ways to Orser. I think he's good at helping skaters with the mental game. Sometimes having a coach that has experienced that kind of pressure is a good thing for the skaters mentally. I suspect a lot of the other skaters are impressed by the way he is with Yu-na...

LKR722 · Jun 10, 2009

I've always wondered if Kurt Browning will ever get into coaching. Probably because he is one of my favorite skaters of all time. He had it all as a skater. I think he would be a wonderful coach for Caroline Zhang if he ever decided to coach.

Andalusia · Jun 10, 2009

LKR722 said:
I've always wondered if Kurt Browning will ever get into coaching. Probably because he is one of my favorite skaters of all time. He had it all as a skater. I think he would be a wonderful coach for Caroline Zhang if he ever decided to coach.

Oh my, that would be a match made in heaven. Just look at Kurt's jumps, speed...footwork!

Maybe there's hope - Kurt's quotes were used in that article on Caroline feraina linked to in this thread, so he must have at least taken some notice of her. Although I do remember he sounded rather unimpressed with Caroline in the CBC broadcast of last year's SC.

Don Laws is another good choice. Someone old-school who is all about teknik, teknik, teknik!

visaliakid · Jun 10, 2009

Joesitz said:
One has to realize that there are Teaching Coaches, and Master Coaches. I do not know who taught YuNa the various elements when she first started training as a competitive figure skating.

It was Priscilla Hill who taught Johnny Weir the elements of competitive figure skating including his fabulous edging and flow over the ice, up to his remarkable 3A. She then brought him to TT to polish it all up.)

Why YuNa chose Orser, I do not know, but he has given her a sense of musicality and showmanship as well as a most promising Oly champ.

Is he yet a Master Coach? We'll see with Adam Rippon.

Joe, I bet if you were to ask Brian or YuNa, both would say that it is David Wilson who has been the most instrumental in developing YuNa's musicality and showmanship.

Joesitz (RIP) · Jun 10, 2009

visaliakid said:
Joe, I bet if you were to ask Brian or YuNa, both would say that it is David Wilson who has been the most instrumental in developing YuNa's musicality and showmanship.

More than likely, you are correct. But then, who recognized that David would accomplish this? more than likely, Orser.

janetfan · Jun 10, 2009

visaliakid said:
Joe, I bet if you were to ask Brian or YuNa, both would say that it is David Wilson who has been the most instrumental in developing YuNa's musicality and showmanship.

What happens when Yuna is having a technical skating problem trying to execute a move from a new choreo? Is it Wilson or Orser who will show her what the problem is and how to fix it? Who will show her the proper skating techniques to bring a new step sequence to life? - Wilson or Orser?
Maybe both - but I don't see why there is a reluctance to give Orser credit for Yuna's steady progress? Aritstry is more than just flapping your arms and smiling on cue. Without being able to properly execute a choreographer's vision on the ice the musicality and showmanship will suffer. Even Oksana had trouble selling her superior artistry when her skating technique diminished.

visaliakid · Jun 10, 2009

Ultimately I think Joe is correct in stating that overall, Brian is responsible for YuNa's finished product on the ice. My reference to David Wilson stems from the various videos on YouTube that clearly show David on ice with YuNa, showing her how to express the choreographed moves he has given her music.

When it comes down to it, being shown and actually expressing it from the heart is the responsibility of the skater to demonstrate. A great skater like YuNa has this god-given ability to skate from the heart. As to the degree her skating demonstrates this now, that both David and Brian are helping to develop her full potential. IMHO she has so much more to give, and I predict she will eventually reach a Kwan-like quality.

I will state that YuNa is the only skater other than Michelle Kwan that has ever illicited a total state of joy in my mind and heart.

AdamFan · Jun 10, 2009

It is one thing to teach a skater how to do something and another to polish, improve, add height, etc.

Brian has added a TON to Yu-Na's skating. He is also the coach who helped Rippon get his triple axel. Rippon was ignored under Morozov and skated like hell this fall as he was trying to basically train himself. Within a month after Nationals of working with Orser, Rippon was FANTASTIC and better than ever at Jr Worlds.

This is why I think people should give the Brian Orsers and Yuka Satos their due. Not only were they fabulous 'skaters skaters', they both competed at the top level and had issues with confidence/consistency that they eventually overcame. It will be invaluable to their skaters.

They both also had perfect technique that was NOT learned overnight.

I agree that Don Laws would be great for Zhang.

LeCygne · Jun 10, 2009

Spun Silver said:
If it's true, I hope it IS a good change. My heart (unlike yours) sinks a little on hearing about all these coaching changes right before Olympic season. It seems desperate. But whatever is really happening, I hope it works out well for Caroline.

It does seem desperate, and I agree that the Olympic season is not the best time for a coaching change. But Caroline will hardly be the only one in that situation, and it's always better late than never.

LeCygne · Jun 10, 2009

Caroline's status on Facebook:

"It takes a lot of courage to release the familiar and seemingly secure, to embrace the new. But there is no real security in what is no longer meaningful. There is more security in the adventurous and exciting, for in movement there is life, and in change there is power." Alan Cohen

Hmm, interesting...

Andalusia · Jun 10, 2009

LeCygne said:
Caroline's status on Facebook:

"It takes a lot of courage to release the familiar and seemingly secure, to embrace the new. But there is no real security in what is no longer meaningful. There is more security in the adventurous and exciting, for in movement there is life, and in change there is power." Alan Cohen

Hmm, interesting...

I think it's just as good as official now, lol.

Rumour around the rink is that Caroline might be making a move to Florida. Are any other prominent coaches besides Don Laws and Richard Callaghan based there? I really hope Don Laws is the chosen one.

AdamFan · Jun 10, 2009

I so hope it is Don Laws. We don't need Richard to suck the life out of her. She isn't male so she won't develop some weird relationship with him.

Kimmie looked great in practice at Skate America last year and then crumbled back to her 2008 self. I just don't know.

Don Laws would be perfect.

feraina · Jun 10, 2009

I have no info, but I want to chime in that Don Laws would be *perfect*. Besides whatever his coaching skills, I think it would be immensely valuable for her to have Patrick Chan as a training mate. Actually, before COI went defunct, I thought how nice it would've been last summer if they had toured together on COI. Imagine some of the skating skills, speed, and edging from Patrick rubbed off on Caroline!!! And Caroline can maybe inspire him with a little more grace and extension (not that he's below average in either, but I think he can improve in both, and from his interviews it sounds like he has to fight a lot of external influences that categorize grace/extension as uncool in a male skater). I don't know how much time Patrick actually spends down in FL (I hope a lot, as it is the Olympic season, and he should maximize the amount of time he can spend with his coach), but I think whatever training time they can share would be really great for Caroline!

Joesitz (RIP) · Jun 10, 2009

If only figure skating was really like Ballet, it would be great to see Chan/Zhang as a pas de deux No?

Andalusia · Jun 10, 2009

The way you've built it up now, feraina...I'd be so crushed if Caroline doesn't end up going to Don. :laugh:

There is a downside to her moving to Florida, though - how will you be able to keep track of her?

I could be wrong, but didn't Mr. Laws help out with Chen Lu at some point? It could even be that Li Mingzhu, knowing she couldn't help Caroline any further, recommended Don Laws as a replacement. And Patrick was at the WTT; could it be that Caroline and her mom met Don at the event and things progressed from there? I expect Mr. Laws is getting on in years, though, so maybe he wouldn't have travelled all the way to Japan just for a glorified cheesefest.

Speculation is such fun. :biggrin:

feraina · Jun 10, 2009

We have Groshkova to thank for planting the seed of this idea.

I merely took the idea and fanned it (mixed metaphors, maybe I "watered" it). :laugh:

AdamFan · Jun 10, 2009

You have to wonder if they sought out Frank Carroll as well. I'm willing to bet this change was thought out for a while, as was Mirai's. One must wonder if Frank Carroll and Shep Goldberg wanted to work so closely together again. Shep is usually very involved, so he likely helped set up whatever coaching change is happening.

Caroline Zhang's 2009-10 season

janetfan

Match Penalty

bekalc

antmanb

bekalc

LKR722

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Andalusia

visaliakid

Joesitz (RIP)

janetfan

Match Penalty

visaliakid

AdamFan

LeCygne

LeCygne

Andalusia

AdamFan

feraina

Joesitz (RIP)

Andalusia

feraina

AdamFan

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