Jump Doctors: Myth or Real

I was wondering about the coaches who are supposed to be experts at fixing jumps. With all of the attention given to jumps under cop.- Lips, flutz, URs -
it is more important than ever for a skater to have clean well-executed jumps.
Yet I am left puzzled by the fact that some of today's greatest skaters are having some of these problems. If there are these mythical "jump doctors" where are they hiding? Tell me why is Kimmie still having such jump problems? Why is Mao still flutzing? Why can't Yuna do a triple Loop? Why does Alissa keep falling? Why can't Caro K do a better 2A? Why hasn't someone fixed Caroline's mule kick? Why is Mirai having continued UR problems? I could go on and on and only named as many skaters as I did so it wouldn't look like I was playing favorites. Many of the skaters I mentioned are my favorites
I think many of the best skaters in the world could use a house call? Is there actually a jump doctor out there who can help them?

Kunstrijdster said:

The great Mishin can't be everywhere

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So does that mean you would say this is a myth?

Kunstrijdster said:

Strangely enough most skaters have at least one problem or weaker jump. Even the best. Lambiel and the triple Axel or Browning and his triple flip come to my mind.

Surely, they offer trainings camps but it is surely not enough to completely alter your technique and when the camps over everything reverts back to normal.
Also, technique once learned is difficult to change and as time progresses it gets even more difficult to change.
Maybe there are not enough of these doctors at the entrance level where the skaters get their basic technique.

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Good points. I agree about Yuna being able to use other jumps besides the loop.
But Mao has to do the lutz or substitute it with a 3A to score high enough in her SP. I just wonder with the the resources that are available to Mao why this wasn't fixed - or maybe as you suggested it is too late to fix it.

Same with Lambiel or let's say Patrick Chan. It is great that he is working on a quad - or is it? He is still having 3A problems and it seems odd that such a talented young skater hasn't been able to make this jump solid yet. It is one thing to have problems with a flip or loop but axles and lutzs are required in SP's to keep competitive.

I was watching clips of one of the youngsters and her 3Lutz does not look like it has chamged much from age 14 to her current age of 16. I wonder if having practiced it for so long she will ever be able to fix it?
Just some questions and thoughts for an off-season weekend

I saw an interview by B. Orser that the problem with Yuna and her Triple Loop is psychological. (He also mentioned that he himself had the same issue when he competed.)

Yuna can do a Loop successfully as she did in some of the competitions in the past. Seeing that, I also think the issue is psychological.

Thanks for joining us, Vladimira. Welcome! :agree:

Thanks for the welcome!

vLadiMiRa said:

I saw an interview by B. Orser that the problem with Yuna and her Triple Loop is psychological. (He also mentioned that he himself had the same issue when he competed.)

Yuna can do a Loop successfully as she did in some of the competitions in the past. Seeing that, I also think the issue is psychological.

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The loop is also the jump that hurts her hip, so it is very understandable why she would be reluctant to work on it.

anyway, a coach, jump doctor or not can only do so much. They can't get out on the ice and land the jumps for the skater. Some skaters just will never be that strong jumpers...or maybe they will always have one or two jumps that they can't quite "get."

I remember reading that Dorothy Hamill was very weak in figures. Her parents sent her to the great Carlo Fassi, the "best figure coach" and she did improve, but they were never that strong.

Tinymavy15 said:

The loop is also the jump that hurts her hip, so it is very understandable why she would be reluctant to work on it.

anyway, a coach, jump doctor or not can only do so much. They can't get out on the ice and land the jumps for the skater. Some skaters just will never be that strong jumpers...or maybe they will always have one or two jumps that they can't quite "get."

I remember reading that Dorothy Hamill was very weak in figures. Her parents sent her to the great Carlo Fassi, the "best figure coach" and she did improve, but they were never that strong.

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With the injury problems Yuna has had it makes sense to not worry so much about loop if it bothers her hip. I think I read that her back injury had been caused by practicing the 3A when she was younger.

BTW, I believe Dorothy finished 2nd in figures at '76 Olympics which does not sound too bad to me.

Some coaches may be better at teaching jumps just as some are better at teaching spins. But this bit about "jump doctors" sounds like a bunch of mumbo-jumbo to me. If the problem is psychological then it most likely can't be fixed by different training techniques.
Let's see how Sasha does this fall. Isn't her new coach supposed to be one of these mythical jump doctors? (The same one who could not fix Mao's 3Lutz)

Mao's Lutz was much improved last season. If she really stalked the enrty she could get only a ! instead of an e.

Unfortunately, that extra concentration sometimes threw off her timing and she missed the jump altogether, as in her SP at Worlds.

It will be interesting to see what she will do this year.

By the way, at the 1992 Olympics Midori Ito planned a 3A as her solo jump in the short program. In practices, however, she became increasing nervous and inconsistent, so her coach decided at the last minute to substitute a triple Lutz -- a jump she never missed on. She fell on the Lutz, finished fourth in the SP, and was out of the running for the gold medal.

Mathman said:

By the way, at the 1992 Olympics Midori Ito planned a 3A as her solo jump in the short program. In practices, however, she became increasing nervous and inconsistent, so her coach decided at the last minute to substitute a triple Lutz -- a jump she never missed on. She fell on the Lutz, finished fourth in the SP, and was out of the running for the gold medal.

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Mao skated very well at WTT. Did she use 3lutz in her SP there or use her 3A?
She did do two 3A's in her LP although one was downgraded.

Here is a link to an interesting old article about Kristi and Midori's Olympic experience. Midori was under such incredible pressure to win OGM. Kristi has given several explanations for why she didn't return only two years later to try and win a second OGM. I think her answer in this article is the truest one.

http://vault.sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1004657/1/index.htm

Mathman said:

Mao's Lutz was much improved last season. If she really stalked the enrty she could get only a ! instead of an e.

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janetfan said:

But Mao has to do the lutz or substitute it with a 3A to score high enough in her SP. I just wonder with the the resources that are available to Mao why this wasn't fixed - or maybe as you suggested it is too late to fix it.

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???

Mao received only one edge warning (!) this season - at TEB, her first competition. She received credit for clean Lutzes at NHK, GPF and Nationals. Plus, there are numerous clips available showing Mao land clean Lutzes in practices, on even better outside edge than those in competition.

Mao's problem with Lutz right now is its consistency, not Flutzing. In the SP she has to do it out of steps, and, as she said, she just isn't confident enough about this jump yet. After WTT she said in an interview that she always approached this jump with a feeling of anxiety, and felt very relieved to be able to attempt 3A2T/3F instead. She still plans to include 3Lz in the LP next season, though.

Somebody posted the videos of all of Mao's practice sessions at Worlds in LA. When she allowed herself a longer approach she was able to land the jump, but when she attempted it out of steps, she usually doubled or popped it. (She never fell or Flutzed). I think she simply needs more time to get used to this jump.

Here's a link to one of her clean Lutzes:
http://img197.imageshack.us/img197/3740/3lzworlds01.gif
(Warning: Gif size about 1.4MB)

Changing the jump technique usually takes about 2 seasons (as it was the case with Joannie). One of the skaters who were able to fix their wrong edge take-off very quickly was Miki, but even she was punished for telegraphing her fixed flip in some of the competitions early in the season. (Unluckily for the skaters who try to fix their jumps this season a stricter rule concerning the jump out of steps in the SP was introduced.)

There's one more thing: Mao credited the improvement of her jump technique to working with Tatiana.
There was one problem, though: Mao was supposed to go to Russia to work with TAT 2-3 weeks before the Four Continent Championships and then they were supposed to go to Canada together, but because of the illness of Tatiana's relative Mao was unable to go to Russia. She had to stay in Japan, being coached "through the phone", with the help of Shanetta Folle, TAT's assistant. That's when Mao started having problems with landing 3Lz in competition.

Furthermore, during the WTT commentary on NTV+ Tatiana blamed Mao's jump problems on herself and said that because Mao hadn't had enough time to acclimatize at Worlds. She said she'll make sure not to make that mistake next season.

janetfan said:

Mao skated very well at WTT. Did she use 3lutz in her SP there or use her 3A?

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She used 3F as a solo jump, and 3A-2T as her combination.

janetfan said:

Mao skated very well at WTT. Did she use 3lutz in her SP there or use her 3A?

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She did 3A+2T for her combination, 3F out of footwork, and 2A. (She got +2 GOE on the 2A, bringing it's value up to 5.5, the same as a flip.)

In fact, in that competition, where she scored over 200 points for a personal best, in her total of ten jumping passes she did 5 Axels and 3 Flips.

Kind of a flaw in the NJS, which on paper is supposed to encourage a "well-balanced" program.

As Kunstrijdster mentions above in post four, a skater could do a long program that featured nothing but double Axels (11 in all, counting sequences ). This scores 35.71 base value -- quite competitive.

janetfan said:

http://vault.sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1004657/1/index.htm

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Thanks for the interesting article. I lked this part.

This is what I learned: The experience of competing in the Games is a greater prize than any medal, even a gold. It's a greater prize than anything a gold medal might bring, since everything a gold medal brings—endorsements, new friends, fame—comes with strings attached. To have competed in the Games is a greater prize than losing is a disappointment, because with time the disappointment fades, while the memory of competing in the Olympics stays fresh and, quite possibly, improves. Yes, there are Olympic winners, but I believe there are no Olympic losers, hard as we in the media might try to find them.

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Kunstrijdster said:

The great Mishin can't be everywhere

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and he's hopeless for anyone but EP, especially with Ladies. Is he doing anything for Lutai? or is it just EP?

Okami said:

???

Mao received only one edge warning (!) this season - at TEB, her first competition. She received credit for clean Lutzes at NHK, GPF and Nationals. Plus, there are numerous clips available showing Mao land clean Lutzes in practices, on even better outside edge than those in competition.

Mao's problem with Lutz right now is its consistency, not Flutzing. In the SP she has to do it out of steps, and, as she said, she just isn't confident enough about this jump yet. .

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Thanks for such detailed comments. If I mention Mao - it is because I think she is such a great jumper! And yes, sometimes we expect too much from these young skaters.

Mathman said:

Thanks for the interesting article. I lked this part.

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Thanks for your remarks - and glad you enjoyed the article.
It was interesting reading your comments about Alissa skatng so beautifully at Detroit show. If only she could ..........

Kunstrijdster said:

Maybe Mishin has run out of his Magic Vests...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u98VG9A3wwY

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Look at the expression on the young skater's face. From the look of the poor kid I suspect there is also an electronice device in that vest that delivers shocks when the coach is not pleased

Mathman said:

She did 3A+2T for her combination, 3F out of footwork, and 2A. (She got +2 GOE on the 2A, bringing it's value up to 5.5, the same as a flip.)

In fact, in that competition, where she scored over 200 points for a personal best, in her total of ten jumping passes she did 5 Axels and 3 Flips.

Kind of a flaw in the NJS, which on paper is supposed to encourage a "well-balanced" program.

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Well, over the course of 2 programs, that's not very unusual under either judging system. Especially for the men in the 90s: triple axel combo and double axel in the short, perhaps with triple flip as the jump out of steps; triple axel and triple flip as the repeated jumps in the long, and a double axel near the end of the program. (Switch lutz for flip if the guy was good at lutzes.)

You could also easily get five or six toe loops (double or triple) and three or four double axels across two programs from a senior lady with average or lower jump content. Or more than that from a guy who does quad combos.

As Kunstrijdster mentions above in post four, a skater could do a long program that featured nothing but double Axels (11 in all, counting sequences ). This scores 35.71 base value -- quite competitive.

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No, there's now a limit of three double axels maximum in a long program.

gkelly said:

Well, over the course of 2 programs, that's not very unusual under either judging system...

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It makes us appreciate a program like 3Lz+2T. 3L/half-loop/2T, 3F, 2A, 3Lo, 3S, 3Lz, 3T. (Lyra Angelica)

Or 3Lo, 3Z/2T, 3T/3T, 3S, 3F, 2A, 3Z . (Red Violin).

Okami said:

Here's a link to one of her clean Lutzes:
http://img197.imageshack.us/img197/3740/3lzworlds01.gif

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Well...OK...but here is a true Lutz edge (Denise Biellmann, 1978. She overrotates and has to save the landing, but still...)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xJRlnZ8qk98

Not many women can do a triple Lutz (oddly enough, one of them is Alissa Czisny.) I think it is because not only must your edge work and timing be precise, but also you need a lot of upper body strength to get that counterrotation going.

I think back in Biellmann's day a lot of ladies could do a good double Lutz. Then they worked up to a triple. Nowadays young skaters want to do triple jumps when they are ten or twelve and are impatient about technique.

Mathman said:

I think back in Biellmann's day a lot of ladies could do a good double Lutz. Then they worked up to a triple. Nowadays young skaters want to do triple jumps when they are ten or twelve and are impatient about technique.

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Yes a good point. Wasn't that something that Janet pointed out in her address to US Skating. That not learning school figures was leading to a lack of skating technique, keeping your body weight properly balanced, too many triple jumps at such a young age were leading to injuries, etc.
I have never read her address but would like to.

Mathman said:

It makes us appreciate a program like 3Lz+2T. 3L/half-loop/2T, 3F, 2A, 3Lo, 3S, 3Lz, 3T. (Lyra Angelica)

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8 jumping passes; to compare to Asada or any other lady competing under IJS, you'd either have to take one out or guess what jump the 21st century example would use if allowed another jumping pass.

Those are just long programs. Note that the takeoffs repeated in the LPs were also used in the SPs.

What do you think of a skater who uses 3 lutzes and 6 toe loops (three double, three triple) across two programs in 11 passes* vs. 3 flips and 5 axels (three double and two triple or vice versa) across two programs in 10 passes? I don't see how either of the above is any better or worse than the other just in those terms.

*Pretty common for ladies with strong triple lutzes in the old system . . . including Kwan at 97 Skate America with the debut version of Lyra Angelica and triple toe as the solo jump in the short.

Most skaters use the jumps that are considered most valuable and/or are most consistent for them in their short programs and as the repeated jumps in the long program. So you'll usually see three of the same triple across two programs. If it's a triple that is also useful as a double, such as toe loop, loop, or axel, you're going to see five or six of that takeoff across two programs. Even if they include all the other takeoffs once or twice.

So what?

Are you really objecting to repeating takeoffs, or rather to omitting one or more completely?