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Thread: Jump Doctors: Myth or Real

  1. #16
    Banned janetfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kunstrijdster View Post
    Maybe Mishin has run out of his Magic Vests...

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u98VG9A3wwY

    Look at the expression on the young skater's face. From the look of the poor kid I suspect there is also an electronice device in that vest that delivers shocks when the coach is not pleased

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    She did 3A+2T for her combination, 3F out of footwork, and 2A. (She got +2 GOE on the 2A, bringing it's value up to 5.5, the same as a flip.)

    In fact, in that competition, where she scored over 200 points for a personal best, in her total of ten jumping passes she did 5 Axels and 3 Flips.

    Kind of a flaw in the NJS, which on paper is supposed to encourage a "well-balanced" program.
    Well, over the course of 2 programs, that's not very unusual under either judging system. Especially for the men in the 90s: triple axel combo and double axel in the short, perhaps with triple flip as the jump out of steps; triple axel and triple flip as the repeated jumps in the long, and a double axel near the end of the program. (Switch lutz for flip if the guy was good at lutzes.)

    You could also easily get five or six toe loops (double or triple) and three or four double axels across two programs from a senior lady with average or lower jump content. Or more than that from a guy who does quad combos.

    As Kunstrijdster mentions above in post four, a skater could do a long program that featured nothing but double Axels (11 in all, counting sequences ). This scores 35.71 base value -- quite competitive.
    No, there's now a limit of three double axels maximum in a long program.

  3. #18
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gkelly View Post
    Well, over the course of 2 programs, that's not very unusual under either judging system...
    It makes us appreciate a program like 3Lz+2T. 3L/half-loop/2T, 3F, 2A, 3Lo, 3S, 3Lz, 3T. (Lyra Angelica)

    Or 3Lo, 3Z/2T, 3T/3T, 3S, 3F, 2A, 3Z . (Red Violin).

    Quote Originally Posted by Okami View Post
    Here's a link to one of her clean Lutzes:
    http://img197.imageshack.us/img197/3740/3lzworlds01.gif
    Well...OK...but here is a true Lutz edge (Denise Biellmann, 1978. She overrotates and has to save the landing, but still...)

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xJRlnZ8qk98

    Not many women can do a triple Lutz (oddly enough, one of them is Alissa Czisny.) I think it is because not only must your edge work and timing be precise, but also you need a lot of upper body strength to get that counterrotation going.

    I think back in Biellmann's day a lot of ladies could do a good double Lutz. Then they worked up to a triple. Nowadays young skaters want to do triple jumps when they are ten or twelve and are impatient about technique.

  4. #19
    Banned janetfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    I think back in Biellmann's day a lot of ladies could do a good double Lutz. Then they worked up to a triple. Nowadays young skaters want to do triple jumps when they are ten or twelve and are impatient about technique.

    Yes a good point. Wasn't that something that Janet pointed out in her address to US Skating. That not learning school figures was leading to a lack of skating technique, keeping your body weight properly balanced, too many triple jumps at such a young age were leading to injuries, etc.
    I have never read her address but would like to.

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    It makes us appreciate a program like 3Lz+2T. 3L/half-loop/2T, 3F, 2A, 3Lo, 3S, 3Lz, 3T. (Lyra Angelica)
    8 jumping passes; to compare to Asada or any other lady competing under IJS, you'd either have to take one out or guess what jump the 21st century example would use if allowed another jumping pass.

    Those are just long programs. Note that the takeoffs repeated in the LPs were also used in the SPs.

    What do you think of a skater who uses 3 lutzes and 6 toe loops (three double, three triple) across two programs in 11 passes* vs. 3 flips and 5 axels (three double and two triple or vice versa) across two programs in 10 passes? I don't see how either of the above is any better or worse than the other just in those terms.

    *Pretty common for ladies with strong triple lutzes in the old system . . . including Kwan at 97 Skate America with the debut version of Lyra Angelica and triple toe as the solo jump in the short.

    Most skaters use the jumps that are considered most valuable and/or are most consistent for them in their short programs and as the repeated jumps in the long program. So you'll usually see three of the same triple across two programs. If it's a triple that is also useful as a double, such as toe loop, loop, or axel, you're going to see five or six of that takeoff across two programs. Even if they include all the other takeoffs once or twice.

    So what?

    Are you really objecting to repeating takeoffs, or rather to omitting one or more completely?

  6. #21
    Beliver in Sasha's Perfect Program Tinymavy15's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kunstrijdster View Post
    Maybe Mishin has run out of his Magic Vests...

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u98VG9A3wwY
    That is so funny! that boy looks like a mini plushenko.

  7. #22
    Banned janetfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tinymavy15 View Post
    That is so funny! that boy looks like a mini plushenko.

    I didn't know Plushy had a mini-me! If the comeback is not successful maybe we see Plushy and mini- Plushenko in the next Austin Powers movie.
    I think Scott Hamilton has a perfect costume for mini- Plushenko to wear and there would be no need to adjust the size!! LOL)
    (of course per approval of seniorita.)
    Mishin and his magic vest would make a good Doctor Evil too!
    Last edited by janetfan; 06-07-2009 at 12:27 PM.

  8. #23
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gkelly View Post
    Are you really objecting to repeating takeoffs, or rather to omitting one or more completely?
    More the latter, I guess. There are, after all, more jumping passes than jumps, so you have to repeat something.

    This is perfect: SP: 3Lz+2T, 3Lo, 3A. LP: 3Lo, 3Lz+2T, 3T+3T, 3F, 3S, 2A, 3Lz (The Red Violoin). This shows mastery of the "vocabulary of figure skating," as they say in the description of the judging system.

    It could be made harder and hence more point-worthy by upgrading the combinations, and if she could do a triple Axel that would be amazing. But at least she didn't do any of those dreadful 3-2-2 combos that bring the program to a dead stop.

    In the last couple of years of Michelle's competitve career, for medical reasons she couldn't do a loop jump. This was a bad thing, not a good.

    When skaters leave out jumps in order to increase their points by doubling up on others, the impressuion is that, for whatever reason, the skater can't do that element. If you are going for the World Championship you should be able to do a triple Salchow (right, Kristi? ) You should be able to do a triple Lutz, but I am a little more forgiving on that because it is a hard jump (I am not sure how Michelle would have fared in the era of ! and e.)

    I think the new judging system provides a disincentive to develop a mastery of the full range of jumps, because you can get more points by leaving out the Salchow or the loop altogether, and doing yet another flip or Lutz instead.

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by janetfan View Post
    I didn't know Plushy had a mini-me!
    Is not this boy Mishin pupil Artur Gachinsky?

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by janetfan View Post
    I was wondering about the coaches who are supposed to be experts at fixing jumps. With all of the attention given to jumps under cop.- Lips, flutz, URs -
    it is more important than ever for a skater to have clean well-executed jumps.
    Yet I am left puzzled by the fact that some of today's greatest skaters are having some of these problems. If there are these mythical "jump doctors" where are they hiding? Tell me why is Kimmie still having such jump problems? Why is Mao still flutzing? Why can't Yuna do a triple Loop? Why does Alissa keep falling? Why can't Caro K do a better 2A? Why hasn't someone fixed Caroline's mule kick? Why is Mirai having continued UR problems? I could go on and on and only named as many skaters as I did so it wouldn't look like I was playing favorites. Many of the skaters I mentioned are my favorites
    I think many of the best skaters in the world could use a house call? Is there actually a jump doctor out there who can help them?
    Well, Elvis is in the building now...some of our skaters could sure use his help!

  11. #26
    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kunstrijdster View Post
    Maybe Mishin has run out of his Magic Vests...

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u98VG9A3wwY
    I'm much impressed with his use of gimmicks to assist young skaters. I think Mischin is a very caring man with male skaters, and he wants to help.

    Still wondering why Yagudin left him.

  12. #27
    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    I think back in Biellmann's day a lot of ladies could do a good double Lutz. Then they worked up to a triple. Nowadays young skaters want to do triple jumps when they are ten or twelve and are impatient about technique.
    Those young skaters aged 10 or 12, unfortunately, want to be the next big thing, and the younges best thing to boot.

    It is much more comfortable to rotate 3 air turns from a flutz takeoff than from a true lutz takeoff. There is no counter rotation to block the air turns. I believe young American skaters should not go beyond single and double lutzes until their take off edges are perfect.

    European Ladies seem to do true lutzes. No?

  13. #28
    Thank God for Stephane Lambiel and Matt Savoie! shine's Avatar
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    As much as I dislike Mishin, I have to give him credit for helping Lambiel get not just a triple axel, but also a quad, in one off season (2002-2003). That was amazing.

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by janetfan View Post
    Good points. I agree about Yuna being able to use other jumps besides the loop.
    But Mao has to do the lutz or substitute it with a 3A to score high enough in her SP. I just wonder with the the resources that are available to Mao why this wasn't fixed - or maybe as you suggested it is too late to fix it.
    I don't think you're asking the right question about Mao. She is and has (all season long) been working on fixing the flutz. The thing you have to remember is that these skaters have been doing these jumps whether as singels, doubles or triples for anything between 11-15 years. That is an awful lot of muscle memory that needs fixing if there is a fundamental flaw with your technique. What we have seen this season is Mao pop the Lutz or mess up in some way but more often than not she on an outside edge. I think it's clear the tactic that Tarasova has taken is - remove the Lutz from the LP (allowing a skater to continue defaulting to poor technique in pressure situations just backs up the bad muscle memory, it is often better to ditch a jump completely to "forget" it before you fix it) and force a "proper" lutz only attitude in the short.

    It took Joannie one whole season to fix her lutz and i think the same will be the case for Mao. Jump doctor she may not be but i think Tarasova's goal has always been the Olympic year. Sacrifice the year before so that Mao has a clean lutz for the Olympic year, plus a year of trying two triple axels. Compared to the past season the Olympic year will be a doddle.

    Quote Originally Posted by janetfan View Post
    Same with Lambiel or let's say Patrick Chan. It is great that he is working on a quad - or is it? He is still having 3A problems and it seems odd that such a talented young skater hasn't been able to make this jump solid yet. It is one thing to have problems with a flip or loop but axles and lutzs are required in SP's to keep competitive.
    While that is true, skaters will often fall into one of two camps - the ones who prefer edge jumps and the ones who prefer toe jumps. I think Lambiel was a preferred toe-jumper. Patrick I'm not sure about, but he is a young skater. Lets not forget (despite the push for quads) the triple axel is an extremely difficult jump. If it wasn't a particularly difficult jump then more women would do it. I think sometimes we forget just how hard these elements are. Axels are nearly always the test of a skater at every level - getting the single axel is one of those tests of skill that shows whether you'll be more than "recreational" skater. Getting the double is the first test of whether a skater is going to be a competitive "elite" skater in terms of competing nationally.

    Quote Originally Posted by janetfan View Post
    I was watching clips of one of the youngsters and her 3Lutz does not look like it has chamged much from age 14 to her current age of 16. I wonder if having practiced it for so long she will ever be able to fix it?
    Just some questions and thoughts for an off-season weekend
    That's the difficulty - you have to go back to the single - break the jump down completely to the parts that make up the whole and tweak and fix each thing, slowly building the jump back up until you can do the single properly and then you have to add rotations without going back to bad technique. It is a very lengthy process and if you're serious about changing flawed triple jump technique you will likely lose the jump for a season.

    Ant

  15. #30
    Banned janetfan's Avatar
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    Good post ant
    I get the feeling that this bit about "jump doctors" is more myth than reality. As you said about Tat - there is no magical lesson that she, Mishin or anyone else can use to correct a skaters jump problems. Rather it seems the way this gets done is to spend a considerable amount of time and a lot of hard work correcting the technical problem. Joe pointed out that too many young American skaters are practicing the 3 Lutz without ever mastering a proper 2 lutz.
    The young American skater I had in mind is Caroline Zhang. I wonder as she grows and gets stronger if she will be able to change the mechanics on her 3 Lutz. You mentioned "muscle memory"and that is not a myth. I also think about all of the practicing Caroline has done at such a young age (it seems she almost wills herself to complete 3 rotations) and the effect it may have on her body as she continues on with her skating career.

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