You could also easily get five or six toe loops (double or triple) and three or four double axels across two programs from a senior lady with average or lower jump content. Or more than that from a guy who does quad combos.
No, there's now a limit of three double axels maximum in a long program.As Kunstrijdster mentions above in post four, a skater could do a long program that featured nothing but double Axels (11 in all, counting sequences ). This scores 35.71 base value -- quite competitive.
Or 3Lo, 3Z/2T, 3T/3T, 3S, 3F, 2A, 3Z . (Red Violin).
Not many women can do a triple Lutz (oddly enough, one of them is Alissa Czisny.) I think it is because not only must your edge work and timing be precise, but also you need a lot of upper body strength to get that counterrotation going.
I think back in Biellmann's day a lot of ladies could do a good double Lutz. Then they worked up to a triple. Nowadays young skaters want to do triple jumps when they are ten or twelve and are impatient about technique.
Yes a good point. Wasn't that something that Janet pointed out in her address to US Skating. That not learning school figures was leading to a lack of skating technique, keeping your body weight properly balanced, too many triple jumps at such a young age were leading to injuries, etc.
I have never read her address but would like to.
Those are just long programs. Note that the takeoffs repeated in the LPs were also used in the SPs.
What do you think of a skater who uses 3 lutzes and 6 toe loops (three double, three triple) across two programs in 11 passes* vs. 3 flips and 5 axels (three double and two triple or vice versa) across two programs in 10 passes? I don't see how either of the above is any better or worse than the other just in those terms.
[SIZE="1"]*Pretty common for ladies with strong triple lutzes in the old system . . . including Kwan at 97 Skate America with the debut version of Lyra Angelica and triple toe as the solo jump in the short.[/SIZE]
Most skaters use the jumps that are considered most valuable and/or are most consistent for them in their short programs and as the repeated jumps in the long program. So you'll usually see three of the same triple across two programs. If it's a triple that is also useful as a double, such as toe loop, loop, or axel, you're going to see five or six of that takeoff across two programs. Even if they include all the other takeoffs once or twice.
Are you really objecting to repeating takeoffs, or rather to omitting one or more completely?
I didn't know Plushy had a mini-me! If the comeback is not successful maybe we see Plushy and mini- Plushenko in the next Austin Powers movie.
I think Scott Hamilton has a perfect costume for mini- Plushenko to wear and there would be no need to adjust the size!! LOL)
(of course per approval of seniorita.)
Mishin and his magic vest would make a good Doctor Evil too!
Last edited by janetfan; 06-07-2009 at 12:27 PM.
This is perfect: SP: 3Lz+2T, 3Lo, 3A. LP: 3Lo, 3Lz+2T, 3T+3T, 3F, 3S, 2A, 3Lz (The Red Violoin). This shows mastery of the "vocabulary of figure skating," as they say in the description of the judging system.
It could be made harder and hence more point-worthy by upgrading the combinations, and if she could do a triple Axel that would be amazing. But at least she didn't do any of those dreadful 3-2-2 combos that bring the program to a dead stop.
In the last couple of years of Michelle's competitve career, for medical reasons she couldn't do a loop jump. This was a bad thing, not a good.
When skaters leave out jumps in order to increase their points by doubling up on others, the impressuion is that, for whatever reason, the skater can't do that element. If you are going for the World Championship you should be able to do a triple Salchow (right, Kristi? ) You should be able to do a triple Lutz, but I am a little more forgiving on that because it is a hard jump (I am not sure how Michelle would have fared in the era of ! and e.)
I think the new judging system provides a disincentive to develop a mastery of the full range of jumps, because you can get more points by leaving out the Salchow or the loop altogether, and doing yet another flip or Lutz instead.
It is much more comfortable to rotate 3 air turns from a flutz takeoff than from a true lutz takeoff. There is no counter rotation to block the air turns. I believe young American skaters should not go beyond single and double lutzes until their take off edges are perfect.
European Ladies seem to do true lutzes. No?
As much as I dislike Mishin, I have to give him credit for helping Lambiel get not just a triple axel, but also a quad, in one off season (2002-2003). That was amazing.
It took Joannie one whole season to fix her lutz and i think the same will be the case for Mao. Jump doctor she may not be but i think Tarasova's goal has always been the Olympic year. Sacrifice the year before so that Mao has a clean lutz for the Olympic year, plus a year of trying two triple axels. Compared to the past season the Olympic year will be a doddle.
Good post ant
I get the feeling that this bit about "jump doctors" is more myth than reality. As you said about Tat - there is no magical lesson that she, Mishin or anyone else can use to correct a skaters jump problems. Rather it seems the way this gets done is to spend a considerable amount of time and a lot of hard work correcting the technical problem. Joe pointed out that too many young American skaters are practicing the 3 Lutz without ever mastering a proper 2 lutz.
The young American skater I had in mind is Caroline Zhang. I wonder as she grows and gets stronger if she will be able to change the mechanics on her 3 Lutz. You mentioned "muscle memory"and that is not a myth. I also think about all of the practicing Caroline has done at such a young age (it seems she almost wills herself to complete 3 rotations) and the effect it may have on her body as she continues on with her skating career.