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Thread: Jump Doctors: Myth or Real

  1. #31
    Custom Title antmanb's Avatar
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    To be honest my comment about Tarasova was particularly about her - I don't think she is a technical coach and certainly not a jump coach. She was an ice dance coach first and foremost who has taken technically accomplished singles skaters and helped them develop their presentation/musicality etc.

    Mishin on the other hand is much more of a technical coach, and furthermore, has developed his own style/methods of teaching that he has refined through his many successful male students.

    Everyone that i have spoken to about his jump training has mentioned his technique of little or no upper body movement on jumps, the fixing of the shoulders with the only strong movement on jumps coming (if you are an anti-clockwise rotator) from the right arm punching round and the left arm drawing back, sweeping the imaginary object from the imaginary table etc etc

    Whatever he says/however he teaches it, it seems to resonate with his students so there has to be something in that. He worked with the UK squad a number of years ago and had some of them rotating triple axels and quads, where they previously had not been even close.

    Off the top of my head I always thought Cathy (or is it with a "K") Casey was specifically a jump coach? I thought she's pioneered the use of those green blobs you stick to your joints and the computers shows you exactly where everythign in your body is during a jump etc.

    Ant

  2. #32
    Banned janetfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by antmanb View Post
    To be honest my comment about Tarasova was particularly about her - I don't think she is a technical coach and certainly not a jump coach. She was an ice dance coach first and foremost who has taken technically accomplished singles skaters and helped them develop their presentation/musicality etc.

    Mishin on the other hand is much more of a technical coach, and furthermore, has developed his own style/methods of teaching that he has refined through his many successful male students. Ant
    I agree with your points about Tat and Mischin. I have no doubt that Mischin can help skaters get to the next level of jumps by using methods he has developed over the years. But it was the "doctor" factor I was wondering about. Tat is using the only approach she knows with Mao. Go back, work on the mechanics, take time - maybe as much as a year (or more) to break the bad habit and develope new muscle memory. But just about any responsible and experienced coach might do the same thing (under cop).
    Sticking with Mishin and Mao - do you think Mischin could work with Mao and correct her flutz in 5-10 sessions? That is what a "doctor might do - cure an ailment. I just think it is different teaching skaters techniques - taking them from doubles to triples - than taking a very accomplished skater and trying to fix a jump problem. Maybe I am wrong, but that is what leads me to the conclusion that this bit about "jump doctors" is not a real or atleast an accurate term.
    Thanks for your insights into this ant.

  3. #33
    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
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    Anxiously awaiting Rafael's expertise with Sasha's flutz, although I do not think her scores will reflect a WET if she hasn't mastered the true lutz.

  4. #34
    Custom Title antmanb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by janetfan View Post
    I agree with your points about Tat and Mischin. I have no doubt that Mischin can help skaters get to the next level of jumps by using methods he has developed over the years. But it was the "doctor" factor I was wondering about. Tat is using the only approach she knows with Mao. Go back, work on the mechanics, take time - maybe as much as a year (or more) to break the bad habit and develope new muscle memory. But just about any responsible and experienced coach might do the same thing (under cop).
    Sticking with Mishin and Mao - do you think Mischin could work with Mao and correct her flutz in 5-10 sessions? That is what a "doctor might do - cure an ailment. I just think it is different teaching skaters techniques - taking them from doubles to triples - than taking a very accomplished skater and trying to fix a jump problem. Maybe I am wrong, but that is what leads me to the conclusion that this bit about "jump doctors" is not a real or atleast an accurate term.
    Thanks for your insights into this ant.
    I've never heard anyone in skating referred to as a jump "doctor". Ultimately the comparison with a doctor is not one that works in skating IMO. A doctor treats his patients for illnesses. If the illnesses are known then it's quickly diagnosed and recitifed, if the illness is not known, or worse still is known but there is not cure then there is no fix. I'm not explaining myself properly but ailments or diseases are all foreign matters in the body that need fixing. That or there are actual physical changes that have taken place that need mending (broken bones etc). I don't think anything in skating is comparable with that.

    Perhaps sticking with the medical theme, perhaps a psychologist would be a better comparison than a doctor? That is more about bahvioural changes which do not happen over short periods of time but over much longer ones.

    I don't think anyone can fix a flutz in 5-10 sessions. It's about unlearning muscle memory and re-learning correct muscle memory and that can only happen with time, there is no magic solution to jump problems except maybe teaching proper technique in the first place

    But part of the problem (certainly in the UK) is that there does not appear a uniform way to teach jump, and there is not even accepted technique for certain jumps. If the grass roots coaches are not teaching the singles properly then what hope do you have as you move up to doubles and triples?

    Ant
    Last edited by antmanb; 06-08-2009 at 09:27 AM.

  5. #35
    Custom Title antmanb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joesitz View Post
    Anxiously awaiting Rafael's expertise with Sasha's flutz, although I do not think her scores will reflect a WET if she hasn't mastered the true lutz.
    I suspect that there is not enough time for Arutunian to fix Cohen's flutz. At this stage, 4-5 months before Cohen's first competition, I think she'd be happy enough to be squaeking out a rotated triple flutz.

  6. #36
    Banned janetfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by antmanb View Post
    I've never heard anyone in skating referred to as a jump "doctor". Ultimately the comparison with a doctor is not one that works in skating IMO.
    Perhaps sticking with the medical theme, perhaps a psychologist would be a better comparison than a doctor? That is more about bahvioural changes which do not happen over short periods of time but over much longer ones.

    I don't think anyone can fix a flutz in 5-10 sessions. It's about unlearning muscle memory and re-learning correct muscle memory and that can only happen with time, there is no magic solution to jump problems except maybe teaching proper technique in the first place
    Ant
    "Jump doctor" is American slang. Many specialists have "doctor" associated with their expertise in non-medical fields. An expert at fixing auto transmissions may be referred to as a "transmission doctor." NBA legend Julious Erving was called "the Doctor." I remember hearing it used for Callaghan "Kimmie needs a jump doctor and he may be good for her."
    It has nothing to do with being a licensed physcian
    The sports pyschology angle is nothing new either and although interesting I have my doubts about that one too. Not saying it can't help - but I have seen many who have not been helped by it. I guess that depends on the individual. For some it can be beneficial while others will continue having the same problems.
    Over here we say they are a "head case."

  7. #37
    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
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    Anyone who has earned a PHD, is a Doctor.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joesitz View Post
    Anyone who has earned a PHD, is a Doctor.
    So.. jump doctors earned a PhD in jumping?

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by liketotally View Post
    So.. jump doctors earned a PhD in jumping?
    In Mishin's case, I think that is pretty much true. Didn't he write a doctoral dissertation about jump mechanics?

  10. #40
    Banned janetfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gkelly View Post
    In Mishin's case, I think that is pretty much true. Didn't he write a doctoral dissertation about jump mechanics?
    I don't know but if he did - then it certainly seems OK to refer to him as Doctor or even "Jump Doctor."

  11. #41
    leave no stone unturned seniorita's Avatar
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    Mishin has written books about biomechanicals and teaches them at university (physical academy something..).
    Now I always wanted to ask, I had seen a Katarina Witt video where she trained her jumps with a thing like a rope she was hung from, is this how all skaters learn their jumps?

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by seniorita View Post
    Now I always wanted to ask, I had seen a Katarina Witt video where she trained her jumps with a thing like a rope she was hung from, is this how all skaters learn their jumps?
    There are overhead jump harnesses and pole-based harnesses that coaches often use to give skaters the feel of new jumps when they're first learning to add a revolution. Not all coaches use them, and they're usually used only at the beginning of the process of learning a new jump.

    Is this the sort of thing you had in mind?

    http://www.jumpharness.com/
    http://www.lebelharness.com/
    http://www.pro-motionharness.com/

    I also sometimes see coaches holding little kids up by one arm overhead to give them the feel of the loop or axel jump when they're first learning the singles.

  13. #43
    leave no stone unturned seniorita's Avatar
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    yes that was it!So this thing has a mechanism that cause a force to rotate them or they are just prevent the skater from falling down when practicing new jumps?Sorry I ask, I was curious many years!

  14. #44
    Sitting Here on Blue Jay Way silver.blades's Avatar
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    The harness helps the skater stay in the air longer so they can get the feeling of the full rotation of the jump.
    Basically, when the skater jumps, the coach pulls down on the handle, to keep the skater airborne as long as possible. It only works if the skater is close to rotating the jump on their own.

  15. #45
    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
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    Two questions: How long has the Harness been around? and Who invented it?

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