Why is flexibility so appreciated? | Page 6 | Golden Skate

Why is flexibility so appreciated?

vlaurend

Final Flight
Joined
Jan 14, 2008
First, re: definition of flexibility - Can we just stipulate for the purposes of this discussion, that we are talking about muscle, ligament and joint flexibility in humans, which, in the dance and sports world means range of motion or the ability of a muscle to stretch?

Second, re: sitspins and adult flexibility:

- Sitspins - Actually require strength (leg, abdominal and back), balance, timing and technique, AND some flexibility in the lower back and achilles tendon.

- Developing flexibility as an adult - very difficult for some things (i.e., the back bend required for laybacks & Biellmanns), irrelevant for other things (hip turnout, which is determined by the position of the hip joints, which is hereditary) and challenging but definitely achievable for other things (splits).

BTW, for my fellow adults with flexibility envy, simple muscle flexibility (like splits) is probably more attainable than you think, with a little discipline and some stretching instruction from a good physical therapist, yoga instructor, etc. FWIW, I did the splits for the first time in my life in my early 40's and two years later can now do a slight over-split. Now I'm working on translating my Y-spiral position on the floor to a good Y-spiral on the ice (yes, flexibility AND balance is even harder, LOL!). So whether or not you find it attractive, I can definitely appreciate the combination of strength, flexibility and balance involved in Shizuka's Y-spiral with the release! WOW. :rock:
 

jjane45

On the Ice
Joined
Mar 23, 2009
I can't do a sit spin so will just testify about shoot-the-ducks.
I personally think it has little to do with flexibility, but rather balance and muscle strength. Many hockey folks who are not very flexible can do really good shoot-the-ducks.
By the way that momentum on ice does work some magic. As an adult skater with below average flexibility, I can hold a shoot-the-duck across the rink, but the exact same position does not work at all on the carpet (just failed). So the chair exercise may not be an objective test re: sit spin in skating.
 
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Joined
Jul 11, 2003
No one wants to say it has nothing to do with BALLET because we all know that Ladies' Figure Skating is based on ballet and not acrobatics. Yeah :rolleye:
 

MKFSfan

Medalist
Joined
Mar 15, 2006
I'm confused Joesitz...you are the only one who keeps mentioning ballet.

Seems to me we are discussing two things: athletes needs to be supple, whether it's a first baseman in baseball stretching to scoop an errant throw, or a figure skater performing a spiral position. And the ability of certain skaters to extend their limbs further than need be in positions can highlight the program. After all, the free leg has to be above the hip in a spiral position, yet a full split will help garner a higher level, and a well stretched out position with pointed toes and great tension will garner +GOEs.

Going back to the ballet comment-I don't know anything about ballet, but I can see how ballet training would help a skater. To learn rhythm, expressing music, holding positions, pointed toes as well as stretching to increase flexibility, and I'm sure there are many more reasons.
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
I'm confused Joesitz...you are the only one who keeps mentioning ballet.
You gottit mkf. Ballet is so sacred to Ladies figure skating that acrobatic tricks are never mentioned except they are beautiful.

Back to flexibility - Please explain how one does a sitsspin or a shoot the duck without flexing the knee joints?

This whole diatribe is based on a non existent definition of the word Flexibility. Can you picture a ballerina using her hands to get her foot over her head while on toe? Beautiful? yeah. Her flexibility comes from strong muscles and know-how of where the joints go. Taking the foot with one's hands and bringing them up and over the head is pure Acrobatics. Beautiful? well, not for everyone.
 

mskater93

Record Breaker
Joined
Oct 22, 2005
The point about a sit spin is that if you have an average, uninjurred range of motion/flexibility in your spinning knee and enough strength to get down and up from the position in the surrounding muscles (mostly quad), anyone can learn a sit spin. It's easier to attain a sit spin position or shoot the duck than a 180 degree split spiral or the Statue of Liberty position spiral assuming you have full range of motion in your knee. Flexibility as defined for most people who are figure skaters relates to how high the free leg is in a spiral, the back position required for a hair cutter and Bielman, and whether you can turn out to do Bauers and spread eagles. When I discuss flexibility with my coach, we aren't talking about attaining a sit position, but getting my free leg higher in spirals and catching my foot in camels and laybacks. We don't talk about turn out because that one comes more easily to me.
 
Joined
Mar 14, 2006
The point about a sit spin is that if you have an average, uninjurred range of motion/flexibility in your spinning knee and enough strength to get down and up from the position in the surrounding muscles (mostly quad), anyone can learn a sit spin. It's easier to attain a sit spin position or shoot the duck than a 180 degree split spiral or the Statue of Liberty position spiral assuming you have full range of motion in your knee. Flexibility as defined for most people who are figure skaters relates to how high the free leg is in a spiral, the back position required for a hair cutter and Bielman, and whether you can turn out to do Bauers and spread eagles. When I discuss flexibility with my coach, we aren't talking about attaining a sit position, but getting my free leg higher in spirals and catching my foot in camels and laybacks. We don't talk about turn out because that one comes more easily to me.
This is what ballet dancers usually call "extension" and it definitely varies among dancers. I've usually heard the question of back position referred to simply as having a flexible back (as in "Nobody has a back like Suzanne Farrell's" - I think that was Violette Verdy) - not "flexibility in general."

IOW, I think extension (how high the leg will go), a flexible back (for great spin positions), and turnout (what you need for spread eagle) are separate qualities, at least in ballet.

Whether this is relevant to the discussion or not, I'm sure Joe will let me know.
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
The point about a sit spin is that if you have an average, uninjurred range of motion/flexibility in your spinning knee and enough strength to get down and up from the position in the surrounding muscles (mostly quad), anyone can learn a sit spin. It's easier to attain a sit spin position or shoot the duck than a 180 degree split spiral or the Statue of Liberty position spiral assuming you have full range of motion in your knee. Flexibility as defined for most people who are figure skaters relates to how high the free leg is in a spiral, the back position required for a hair cutter and Bielman, and whether you can turn out to do Bauers and spread eagles. When I discuss flexibility with my coach, we aren't talking about attaining a sit position, but getting my free leg higher in spirals and catching my foot in camels and laybacks. We don't talk about turn out because that one comes more easily to me.
As MM put it, posters are talking about extraordinary flexibility which I read is what one learns in acrobatic class, which includes lots of splits on the floor exercises and the instructor dragging your foot over your head while standing next to a wall, and among other things like constant back bends. And it takes lots of muscles to do it just like it takes a heavy strain of muscle power to get your hands to pull up the leg over your head. One just doesn't lift the leg up - one has to drag it up. No?

Spirals too, require constant stretching to attain the proper position but that doesn't require anything but personal muscle power (look, mom, no hands) and lots of knees turning out and toes pointing upward and outward. Iina Bauers require a lot of practice with back bends. Acrobatic classes will get that for you.

I do not know your coach and there is nothing to discuss if you take Acrobatic Classes. If not, one must do the exercises at home with lots of stretching.
The goal is to get a limber bodies.

I have nothing against the I spin. It gets some plus GoEs, I presume. but for me, it requires too many body parts to finally get into the position. I much prefer Sasha's front attitude spin. lovely!
 

janetfan

Match Penalty
Joined
May 15, 2009
It is interesting to follow this thread and I just went back and looked up the original topic - "Why is flexibilty so appreciated."

Whatever we may think about this subject one thing is clear. Good skaters who are also very flexible are of special interest to us.
Look at the amount of posts for Caroline and then look at how many there are for Rachael, Ashley, Alissa and Mirai. And then Sasha. Actually Alissa and even more so Mirai are pretty flexible. But there are more posts for Caroline than the others put together, excluding Sasha. Is it any accident that Sasha is also very flexible?

So whaterver the technical reasons - and arguments over flexibility may be, one thing is clear. Flexibility, as the topic header suggests is very appreciated.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
^ Although...the thrust of the OP is, "I don't understnd why flexibility is so appreciated -- to me, it's not all that." :)
 

janetfan

Match Penalty
Joined
May 15, 2009
^ Although...the thrust of the OP is, "I don't understnd why flexibility is so appreciated -- to me, it's not all that." :)

You may deduct a few points :yes:
And has the question been answered? I think it has mostly been a good debate over the definition of flexibilty but has not done much to address if - or why it is appreciated.
I still agree with Kramer's/Seinfeld take on this - atleast to some extent.
There is something intriguing about watching someone do what we ourselves can't do. Which direction our thoughts and imagination take us can depend on a variety of factors. But flexibilty as demonstrated by skaters like Sasha and Caroline is very fascinating - almost in a primeval way.
Some think it all depends on the lines and beauty of the position. I certainly agree with that. I am not so sure exactly why I enjoy watching flexible skaters but like most here I do enjoy it.
 
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Joined
Jul 11, 2003
I don't think Seinfeld and Kramer could ever do anything in the way of elements of figure skating. Most people in this world can not.

Enough of all this. I will concede that the meaning of flexibility is just not the same as it is in the dictionary and that it has a special meaning in figure skating for those fans of the I spin. Revisionists, oy ve.

Over and Out!
 

janetfan

Match Penalty
Joined
May 15, 2009
So, is Kristi the all time greatest combination pairs/singles skater? :love:

Hmm, I had the same thought about Kristi. :love:
Wonder if any other skaters were able to both so well. Going way back - Mirabel Vinson was good at both.
 
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