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Thread: Should the ISU expand the field for the Grand Prix final?

  1. #16
    Banned janetfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    Because the skater from India is the champion of her nation. Every member of the ISU has the right to send its champion to the big show. It's one of the rights of membership.

    But about expanding the GP final to 12, ChuckM posted the only point that matters in post #8. It costs money. The ISU doesn't have any. The last set of rules changes for Worlds tried to save money by limiting the number of skaters that make the LP. etc., for the same reason -- not to mention cutting the number of judges down from 12 to 9.
    What are ISU rankings for? I know what Tennis rankings are for - they are used to basically determine the field at the Grand Slam tournaments. In a given year the US could have 6 men at a Grand slam. This year at the French open there must have been 10 or more Russian Ladies in the singles draw. Why? Because the Grand Slams are the major tennis events of the season and why would I or many others bother to watch them if they left out many of the best players. It is stupid the way ISU limits = punishes the stronger federations. This year I could care less, even at the Olympics about seeing anything under the top 12 skaters. Why? Because many of them are bad. USA could have atleast 6-8 Ladies this year and the quality of skating would be greatly improved. Why might Caroline, Mirai , Ashley, Kimmie, Alissa, etc, etc, etc, not be skating at the Olympics? It makes no sense to me to have so many skaters that could not make a US Jr team skating while so many better skaters are home. That is partially why TV ratings in USA are so low. Why do we want to watch, in some cases skaters below our average junior skater's level? It is silly and it is wrong. It goes against the Olympic ideal and against the basic rules of competition.
    I don't care so much about GP because it is what it is - a money maker for ISU and a way to keep skating in the spotlight. The format. along with the GP champions are not that meaningful or important. But to run a competition and call it a World Championship or an Olympic competiton shoud be about inviting the best and anything less deprives the skaters and fans.
    hrumpf

  2. #17
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by janetfan View Post
    What are ISU rankings for?
    The short answer is "nothing."

    The longer answer is, the purpose of the ISU rankings is for the ISU to prod skaters into doing Four Continents and European B events, which otherwise the elite skaters would prefer to skip.

    The way to get to the top of the leader board (the #1 lady in the world is Carolina Kostner and the #1 man in the world is Tomas Verner) is not to win the world championship but to grab extra points at these lesser events. If you are obedient to the ISU and support these lesser events (which otherwise would have to fold for lack of interest), then the ISU gives you a cash prize at the end of the season ($45,000 for top ranking in singles, etc.)

    The reason that tennis and golf are different from figure skating is that in those sports the fundamental entity is the indivdual player. Tiger Woods is a member of the PGA. (He shot a 74 today )

    In contrast, Yu-na Kim is not member of the ISU. The Korean Skating Federation is a member of the ISU. Each national federation has one vote. Each national federation sends its champion to Worlds, plus an extra skater or two if the federation (not the skater) has earned extra spots.

    Well, they could do it differently -- but not without a massive reorganization of that very conservation organization, the ISU.

    Quote Originally Posted by janetfan View Post
    This year I could care less, even at the Olympics about seeing anything under the top 12 skaters. Why? Because many of them are bad....That is partially why TV ratings in USA are so low. Why do we want to watch, in some cases skaters below our average junior skater's level? It is silly and it is wrong.
    Don't worry, the skaters below the top 12 will not be shown on TV.
    Last edited by Mathman; 06-19-2009 at 10:11 PM.

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    I would like to see 8 at the GPF. I think 12 would be way too many and would ruin the prestige of qualifying for the Final, but 6 isn't enough. Sometimes it comes down to luck who gets that 6th and final spot, and I think it would just make it more fair to expand it to 8.

    The longer answer is, the purpose of the ISU rankings is for the ISU to prod skaters into doing Four Continents and European B events, which otherwise the elite skaters would prefer to skip.
    I don't know, Four Continents is becoming a pretty big deal now. If Europeans is a big deal, why shouldn't the other continents have a similar type event? There's too much emphasis on Worlds, Worlds, Worlds. It's nice that the skaters can compete in a Grand Prix series and a 4CC rather than having their entire international season based on just Worlds.

  4. #19
    Banned janetfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    The short answer is "nothing."

    Don't worry, the skaters below the top 12 will not be shown on TV.
    OK, whether you meant it or not - you called my bluff
    And I would watch more if they showed it

  5. #20
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gold12345 View Post
    I don't know, Four Continents is becoming a pretty big deal now.
    True. Maybe this shows that the plan of the ISU worked.

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    True. Maybe this shows that the plan of the ISU worked.
    I know less about 4cc than almost anything I can think of that has to do with skating. I am not even sure which four continents they are referring too

    N. America, Europe, Asia.....and a wild guess - Australia ???

    Give me a year and I will bring a team of skating penguins from Antartica. We will become the 4th continent..
    Last edited by janetfan; 06-19-2009 at 10:31 PM.

  7. #22
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    ^ The Americas (North and South America count as one continent, like in the Olympic rings), Asia, Africa and Oceana.

    Oceana is mostly Australia, but New Zealand sent a men's skater this year, Mathieu Wilson.

    I think the only African nation in the ISU is South Africa. They sent 2 ladies and 1 man to the 2009 event.

    There were several skters from Mexico and South America.

    Europe has their own "continental" competition (appropriately called Europeans. )

    The winners of the 1948 European championship were Dick Button (USA) and Barbara Ann Scott (Canada). (After World War II European figure skating programs were in shambles, so they allowed North Americans to come just so they would have some skaters to put on a show with. After 1948, it went back to being Europeans only.)

  8. #23
    Custom Title snowflake's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by janetfan View Post
    This year I could care less, even at the Olympics about seeing anything under the top 12 skaters. Why? Because many of them are bad. USA could have atleast 6-8 Ladies this year and the quality of skating would be greatly improved. Why might Caroline, Mirai , Ashley, Kimmie, Alissa, etc, etc, etc, not be skating at the Olympics? It makes no sense to me to have so many skaters that could not make a US Jr team skating while so many better skaters are home. That is partially why TV ratings in USA are so low. Why do we want to watch, in some cases skaters below our average junior skater's level? It is silly and it is wrong. It goes against the Olympic ideal and against the basic rules of competition.
    The olympic ideal is:
    "The most important thing in the Olympic Games is not to win but to take part, just as the most important thing in life is not the triumph but the struggle. The essential thing is not to have conquered but to have fought well."

    You could laugh at this, of course, but for many of the athletes this is true. Almost every nation in the world is represented nowadays. That's why the number of athletes are restricted in all the sports in OG, not only in figure skating. Like it or not.

    btw I don't find the american ladies that superior. 2008 worlds: 7, 10 and 16. 2009: 5 and 11. For me it would be more interesting to see like 5-6 japanese ladies in OG

  9. #24
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    I'm happy to see others also think that increasing the number of GPFinalists to at least 8 would improve the competitions in many ways. Now can we convince the ISU of that?

    As to 4CC v. Euros. Well, travel plays a big roll in the distinction. A skater from Paris travelling to Warsaw will take up a substantial amount of time, but one from Capetown to Vancouver is a heluva long trip, and not so easy even if it is a direct flight.

    If Argentina begins to enhance its figure skating on ice, that will also be a huge trip, and Capetown and Argentina may want to hold the Worlds someday. It's not a European sport any more.

  10. #25
    leave no stone unturned seniorita's Avatar
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    The short answer is "nothing."


    How the idea of Four continents was born?It is like mini worlds , all except european skaters. Is there an event like Euros for each of the other continents by the way?



    Give me a year and I will bring a team of skating penguins from Antartica.
    why dont you pick kangaroo from australia. They would be good jumbers.

    The most important thing in the Olympic Games is not to win but to take part...You could laugh at this, of course, but for many of the athletes this is true. Almost every nation in the world is represented nowadays.
    thats why I like Olympics. Not only in figure skating. No matter how commercial it has ended up, in his pure concept i like the fact that athletes from countries i ve never heard of come and compete just to compete. .If you have attended live you see their joy. Otherwise I would watch a second round of Worlds.
    Last edited by seniorita; 06-20-2009 at 06:25 AM.

  11. #26
    Banned janetfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seniorita View Post


    why dont you pick kangaroo from australia. They would be good jumbers.

    thats why I like Olympics. Not only in figure skating. No matter how commercial it has ended up, in his pure concept i like the fact that athletes from countries i ve never heard of come and compete just to compete. .If you have attended live you see their joy. Otherwise I would watch a second round of Worlds.
    I like the Olympic Festival for the same reasons you mentioned. But it does bug me to see so many ot the wolrd's best skaters - American, Japanese, or from any nation - being left out. Why not see the joy of competing from the 50 best skaters and not from the 25 best skaters with 25 others who are only there because their country is a member of IOC.
    It is possible to have an Olympic qualifying tournament for skaters/Federations that are smaller or newer to skating. They do this for the World Cup in football because no one wants to pay money to go see Brazil beat Samoa 35 - 0 in a "World Cup" game.
    Thanks for some of the replies and this is just something that doesn't feel right to me. I think of Caroline Zhang watching Worlds last Spring in her home town knowing that there were 30 skaters competing who she could beat on a bad day.
    I am sure there were Japanese skaters and others who should have also been there. Why is ISU rewarding Federations with guaranteed spots in it's most prestigious events and leaving out some of the best skaters?
    Kangaroos are notorious flutzers so I will stick with penguins.
    Last edited by janetfan; 06-20-2009 at 07:49 AM.

  12. #27
    Off the ice Buttercup's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seniorita View Post

    How the idea of Four continents was born?It is like mini worlds , all except european skaters. Is there an event like Euros for each of the other continents by the way?
    There used to be the North American Championships, which were held every other year between 1923 and 1971. The Canadian federation decide to end its participation before the 1973 competition and launched the Skate Canada event later that year. That was it for North American Championships.

    Europe obviously has plenty of member federations and Euros has a long history and a lot of prestige. As others have noted, there aren't many federations from Africa or even the Americas. Obviously it makes more sense to have one event for all non-European skaters, namely 4CC. I think they're still working on making it attractive to skaters (ISU ranking points, prizes, occasionally questionnable scoring leading to ridiculous PBs etc. ).
    Last edited by Buttercup; 06-20-2009 at 07:12 AM.

  13. #28
    Custom Title snowflake's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by janetfan View Post
    Why not see the joy of competing from the 50 best skaters and not from the 25 best skaters with 25 who are only there because their country is a member of IOC.
    It is possible to have an Olympic qualifying tournament for skaters/Federations that are smaller or newer to skating. They do this for the World Cup in football because no one wants to pay money to go see Brazil beat Samoa 35 - 0 in a "World Cup" game.
    I don't understand exactly how you mean? That the 25 with best personal scores could participate and then 25 more from a qualifying round?

    Then the rules must be changed for other sports too. For example I am sure that a bunch of Norwegian cross country skiiers could place top ten in certain disciplins.

    OK, I know this is not the topic of this thread. Should have been in some olympic thread.
    Last edited by snowflake; 06-20-2009 at 07:42 AM.

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by snowflake View Post
    I don't understand exactly how you mean? That the 25 with best personal scores could participate and then 25 more from a qualifying round?

    Then the rules must be changed for other sports too. For example I am sure that a bunch of Norwegian cross country skiiers could place top ten in certain disciplins.
    I was vague about how to fix this problem - but you did understand my point. Why not have more Norwegian cross country skiers if they have some that are clearly better - and deserving by their skill level to compete in the Olympics.
    They did change rules about the ski jumpers because some were so bad they were making a mockery of the event. Wonder what it was like watching the first group of six Lady skaters at Worlds this year? Were they as good as some of the better Japanese Junior skaters?

  15. #30
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    maybe some of this thread which appears to be a learning thread be brought to the Olympics or the 4CC threads.

    back to the topic

    Would fans like to see the Finalists in the GPs raised to 8? and do you think the ISU would consider it?

    Can anyone speak of the additional financial implications? additional cost of ISU and cost of host countries, for example.

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