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Thread: Should the ISU expand the field for the Grand Prix final?

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joesitz View Post

    Would fans like to see the Finalists in the GPs raised to 8? and do you think the ISU would consider it?
    Yes I would and no I don' think so.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joesitz View Post
    .

    Would fans like to see the Finalists in the GPs raised to 8? and do you think the ISU would consider it?

    Can anyone speak of the additional financial implications? additional cost of ISU and cost of host countries, for example.
    Having more skaters in the GP finals could offer a more competitive final. But for a GPF to be more meaningful I would think the entire GP selection process would also need to be overhauled. Right now, much of making it to the GPF depends on the "luck of the draw." How competitive is that?
    At this time it appears that ISU has thrown a truckload of money into the new WTT event. With over a million dollars awarded in prize money it feels like this is something they are hoping will catch on. Some say ISU has no money - but they found money for WTT. Apparently ISU does not feel a need to change GP format at this time - and don't forget ISU is still spending alot to get 4CC better established in the minds of the top skaters.
    Last edited by janetfan; 06-20-2009 at 08:54 AM.

  3. #33
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    ^^^
    Interesting that you posed the question of the moneys used by the ISU for the WTT, and assuming that it would need more money for the GPs if the finalists were to be raised to 8.

    I believe but not certain that Japan fitted the bill for WTT with ISU blessing.

    I also believe that you may be opining about the additinal costs for the GPs.
    you may be correct but I would like to see facts. We all can give opinions.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joesitz View Post
    ^^^
    Interesting that you posed the question of the moneys used by the ISU for the WTT, and assuming that it would need more money for the GPs if the finalists were to be raised to 8.

    I believe but not certain that Japan fitted the bill for WTT with ISU blessing.

    I also believe that you may be opining about the additinal costs for the GPs.
    you may be correct but I would like to see facts. We all can give opinions.
    I do not have access to the ISU bookeeping records or their current balance sheet, so I am only able to offer opinions until further notice.
    Other posters have mentioned the money and cost factor several times.
    My opinion is that it is silly to try and make the GPF more competitive because the selection process is based on different factors. It is based on federations having their best skaters at home to attract the best attendance at their event. GP selection is about filling seats and making money. It is not about competition.
    So why would they suddenly decide the GPF is a mini worlds - when it is NOT.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by janetfan View Post
    Why is ISU rewarding Federations with guaranteed spots in it's most prestigious events...
    Because the ISU is run by the member federations. They would never vote to cut themselves out of the Olympics.

    Some say ISU has no money - but they found money for WTT.
    As Joe points out, the WTT money came from Japanese TV and Japanese corporate sponsors. Japan is probably the only country right now that can put up the bucks. That's why next year's event is also scheduled for Japan, and at the moment no more WTTs are in the works.

    The ISU recently decided that they could not give the USFSA any money to put on Skate America. For the first time, Skate America is on its own, as far as attracting sponsorship and TV money.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    Because the ISU is run by the member federations. They would never vote to cut themselves out of the Olympics.


    As Joe points out, the WTT money came from Japanese TV and Japanese corporate sponsors. Japan is probably the only country right now that can put up the bucks. That's why next year's event is also scheduled for Japan, and at the moment no more WTTs are in the works.

    The ISU recently decided that they could not give the USFSA any money to put on Skate America. For the first time, Skate America is on its own, as far as attracting sponsorship and TV money.
    All good points mm.
    Fifa is run in a similar manner, but not every member of Fifa gets to play in the World Cup. They run a competition to see who will qualify.

    My point exactly - that when ISU wanted money for something they were able to find it. Why can't they find it for GPF? Or do they even want to change it?

    Skate America picked Evan didn't they - maybe they should have also picked Jeremy and Alissa - but they didn't. The whole GP process is politicized, based on filling seats and even protecting certain skaters. To call it strange might be an understatement.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joesitz View Post
    also believe that you may be opining about the additinal costs for the GPs.

    you may be correct but I would like to see facts. We all can give opinions.
    As Janetfan mentions, the ISU does not open its books to public inspection. But here are some facts.

    At the last go-round the ISU felt itself so pressed for money that it instituted these changes:

    1. They cut down the number of skaters who qualify for the LP at Worlds, Europeans and Four Continents. For singles, only the top 20 in the SP (instead of 24) will be allowed to skate the LP. At Four Continents, only the top 12 pairs and the top 12 dance teams will skate the LP/FD. The host country will no longer be allowed to qualify an extra skater.

    2. If a skater does not make the cut for the LP, he/she must leave the premises by breakfast the day after the SP. The ISU will not pay for hotel and meals after that. :frown2:

    3. The number of judges was cut down from 12 to 9, even for the Olympics. I do not know how much money the ISU saves by eliminating the expenses of three extra judges, but whatever small amount it is, the ISU feels this cost-cutting measure to be necessary in these hard times.

    I do not see any possibility that the ISU will increase the field for the GP final, or for any figure skating event, for the foreseeable future.

    Here is Sonia Bianchetti's take on it.

    http://www.soniabianchetti.com/writi...stsavings.html
    Last edited by Mathman; 06-20-2009 at 10:02 AM.

  8. #38
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    Thanks for an interesting and informative post.
    I don't like that the number of judges has been cut and I am sure you can see the statistical possibilties can become too important in how skaters might be placed.

    Earlier I questioned why at a given Worlds or Olympics 10 to 20 of the wolrd's best skaters will not be participating. I am aware that I didn't offer a solution and don't think I have the answer. I do think that ISU should do more to assure that skaters who have shown they are among the 20 best in the world should be at these competitions regardless of their nationality.
    Last edited by janetfan; 06-20-2009 at 10:12 AM.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by janetfan View Post
    Earlier I questioned why at a given Worlds or Olympics 10 to 20 of the wolrd's best skaters will not be participating. I am aware that I didn't offer a solution and don't think I have the answer. I do think that ISU should do more to assure that skaters who have shown they are among the 20 best in the world should be at these competitions regardless of their nationality.
    How do you decide who the twenty best in the world are though? You would have to implement a system that gave points to the skaters and that would be very hard to keep up with throughout the year. For example, tennis rankings are constantly changing week to week.

    There is also a risk that one of the best skaters in the World bombs for most of the year, doesn't get the required points to make it to Worlds and they miss out (which is the same problem that you brought up - top skaters missing out on Worlds). In many sports the best don't always get to compete. Relating this to another sport, Hockey Canada will pick their players for Team Canada in 2010 by the end of the year. Our country has so many talented players that many will not make Team Canada but they could easily make any other team from another country.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by i love to skate View Post
    How do you decide who the twenty best in the world are though? You would have to implement a system that gave points to the skaters and that would be very hard to keep up with throughout the year. For example, tennis rankings are constantly changing week to week.

    There is also a risk that one of the best skaters in the World bombs for most of the year, doesn't get the required points to make it to Worlds and they miss out (which is the same problem that you brought up - top skaters missing out on Worlds). In many sports the best don't always get to compete. Relating this to another sport, Hockey Canada will pick their players for Team Canada in 2010 by the end of the year. Our country has so many talented players that many will not make Team Canada but they could easily make any other team from another country.

    All very good points. The first thing I might address is about hockey. It is a team sport so it differs from sports where individuals are particpating. My point would be more like what if there was an Olympics and for some reason/rule Team Canad did not qualify - but there was a team from Bolivia (who was losing 20 - 0 in each game?) Would that feel strange?

    Earlier I asked what are ISU rankings used for?
    Don't they change after various events that go on during a season?
    I don't disagree with your views and like I said I don't have the answer. But sometimes solutions or a better understanding come from asking questions. That is all I am doing.
    Last edited by janetfan; 06-20-2009 at 10:46 AM.

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by janetfan View Post
    All very good points. The first thing I might address is about hockey. It is a team sport so it differs from sports where individuals are particpating. My point would be more like what if there was an Olympics and for some reason/rule Team Canad did not qualify - but there was a team from Bolivia (who was losing 20 - 0 in each game?) Would that feel strange?

    Earlier I asked what are ISU rankings used for?
    Don't they change after various events that go on during a season?
    I don't disagree with your views and like I said I don't have the answer. But sometimes solutions or a better understanding come come from asking questions. That is all I am doing.
    Hockey is a team sport but when they are trying to make the Olympic team they are competing as individuals to get on Team Canada. Therefore, many will be left out of that experience. It would definitely feel strange if there was no Team Canada but if they were unable to qualify then that is their own fault.

    I think the trouble lies in the fact that the skaters are not members of the ISU, they are members of their own federation (as someone brought up before). In order to implement a ranking system, there would have to be some major re-workings with the Federations and the ISU. There is also the possibility that some countries may drop out of the ISU because their skaters may never have the chance to compete at Worlds or the Olympics.

    As far as ISU rankings I thought they were only changed at the conclusion of the year? I really do not know much about them! I am enjoying the discussion!

  12. #42
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    If anyone is truly inerested in facts and figures, here is the 2008 audit of the USFSA. They have about $73,000,000 in total assets.

    http://www.usfigureskating.org/Conte...Financials.pdf

    For some reason I can't find the treasurer's report projecting the 2009-2010 season, but as I recall, their revenues were something like 1.5 million dollars short (don't hold me to that exact figure), and they expected to have to dip into their long-term investments to make up the shortfall.

    A couple of months ago the legislature of the State of Washington voted to rescind the offer of the Governor to contribute $600,000 for U.S. Nationals. Local sponsors are scrambling to try to make up the difference.

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by janetfan View Post
    what if there was an Olympics and for some reason/rule Team Canad did not qualify - but there was a team from Bolivia (who was losing 20 - 0 in each game?) Would that feel strange?
    I think a more precise analogy would be, what if Canada qualified three teams for the Olympics, Canada #1, Canada #2 and Canada # 3.

    But Canada team #4 was also better than the Bolivian team. What should we do?

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    I think a more precise analogy would be, what if Canada qualified three teams for the Olympics, Canada #1, Canada #2 and Canada # 3.

    But Canada team #4 was also better than the Bolivian team. What should we do?
    Good point, and yes, that is a much better analogy.
    I better get some coffee and think it over before I answer

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by i love to skate View Post
    As far as ISU rankings I thought they were only changed at the conclusion of the year? I really do not know much about them! I am enjoying the discussion!
    The ISU Rankings are updated after each competition that awards ISU Ranking points. These competitions are:

    JGP events and JGP Final

    GP events and GP Final

    ISU Championships (Europeans, 4CC, Junior Worlds, Worlds) and Olympics

    Senior "B" International events (e.g. Nebelhorn, Karl Schafer, Nepela, etc.). Excluded are invitational events, those limited to a specific geographic area (e.g. Nordics, Asian Trophy) or a specific group (Collegiates), those with less than a specified number of competitors, and those where the tech team doesn't meet specific criteria. Points awarded only to SENIOR skaters (no points for Juniors, Novice and below).

    There are several problems with the ISU Ranking system:

    1. GP events are too heavily weighted.

    Winning two GP events and the GPF gives the same amount of points as winning the World Championship. IMO, these titles (GPF champ and World champ) are not equal.

    If a skater is unable to compete in the GP for an entire season due to illness or injury, the loss of those points can cause that skater's ranking to drop for at least two seasons.

    Smaller federations (and even larger federations who aren't GP hosts) are at a disadvantage because their skaters don't get the same opportunities to compete in GP events as the GP host federations.

    2. Nearly all "B" Internationals are held in Europe

    The "B" International category was created to help federations who aren't GP hosts gain points for their skaters. However, many European skaters who DO get invited to GP events "pad" their rankings with two or more "B"s per year. That is why Carolina Kostner and Tomas Verner have been ranked #1 on the ISU Rankings even though both are inconsistent skaters and neither one has ever won a World or GPF title.

    North American and Asian skaters do not have the opportunity to "pad" their rankings as easily as the European skaters do because there are no "B" competitions in North America and Asia.

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