The Legacy of Michelle Kwan

[janetfan]

Even just skating at GPF gives you few hundred ranking points. Remember starting order at any ISU event is decided by ranking points, and we've seen some significant correlation between the starting order and pcs.

What if a skater qualifies for GPF - but withdraws due to injury. Do they still get the points for qualifying - or do those points get awarded to a skater who fills that spot?

[Buttercup]

What if a skater qualifies for GPF - but withdraws due to injury. Do they still get the points for qualifying - or do those points get awarded to a skater who fills that spot?

Skaters don't get points for qualifying for the GPF, only for what they do there. All the skaters who had to WD at the 2008-9 GPF received no points for that event.

[janetfan]

Skaters don't get points for qualifying for the GPF, only for what they do there. All the skaters who had to WD at the 2008-9 GPF received no points for that event.

Thanks for your answer. It feels like GPF is awarding points just to get skaters to show up.
Is this sport - or a beauty pageant?

[Wrlmy]

That was actually what I wanted to say - but then I was not so sure anymore that the starting order at the Olympics is done like the starting order at ordinary ISU events. Did not Plushenko start second in Torino?

Hmm..not too sure. But I do remember that Irina, Shizuka, Sasha, and Fumie all skated in the final group for the shorts.

[R.D.]

Plus, winning a medal at the Grand Prix Final is going to get her some valuable points and will perhaps raise her World Standing significantly. And don't forget the impression a medal at the Grand Prix Final will make on the judges at Nationals.

But the question then becomes, does she care about her World Ranking, or showing up at the Olympics for her "moment"?

But this talk is irrelevant until we know that she is physically up for the challenge. And to tie it in with MK, she's in the same boat, too. Wanting it or willingness to work hard isn't enough. If the body is not up to it, it's over. MK knows this first hand and Cohen might find that out herself.

[Joesitz]

I think Sasha is just interested in skating in the Olys. She got a lot of publicity and glitzy invitations the last time out. I don't blame her for wanting that again.

I really doubt Kwan will skate Nats but I think if they honor her in Spokane, she will do a farewell program.

[R.D.]

I think Sasha is just interested in skating in the Olys. She got a lot of publicity and glitzy invitations the last time out. I don't blame her for wanting that again.

Can't disagree there. However, for someone who supposedly craves the spotlight that much, she seems surprisingly shy.

One has to be VERY careful when seeking fame, though. Most of the folks only see the glitz, glamor and extravagant lifestyle, not the lack of privacy, scrutiny, looney fans, and folks just waiting to exploit you. Breakout reality "stars" usually find this out the hard way.

I really doubt Kwan will skate Nats but I think if they honor her in Spokane, she will do a farewell program.

I think that would be a nice touch. The fans would dig that one, and there could be some closure to her career. I wouldn't mind seeing that happen.

[janetfan]

I think Sasha is just interested in skating in the Olys. She got a lot of publicity and glitzy invitations the last time out. I don't blame her for wanting that again.

I really doubt Kwan will skate Nats but I think if they honor her in Spokane, she will do a farewell program.

I agree on both points. Sasha's so called "acting career" has been a dud and I can see her - even with acting talent - as not being the easiest girl to cast.
A ticket back to the Olympics is the best thing she can hope for on several different levels. I like Sasha so i don't mean this in a bad way - just the situation for her as I see it.

With Michelle - if she did a "farewell performance" at Naionals I would love to be there to stand and cheer for her.......for several minutes, and then again when she finished skating.
I will never forget the first time I saw Michelle skate Live - she was so young, but was already dropping many triples - and skating with that special joy she brought to the ice. I guess she was 13 or 14 when I saw her in Philly.

[Mathman]

Thanks for your answer. It feels like GPF is awarding points just to get skaters to show up.

Is this sport - or a beauty pageant?

I think the ISU is trying its best to make skating into something more than just a once-every-four-years phenomenon. True, you don't become "immortal" by winning the Grand Prix Final. But you don't become immortal by winning the Olympic gold medal, either -- you just get your name in the almanac, along with who won the 100 meter hurdles in 2000 (Olga Shishigina).

I think the athletes by and large like to compete. I think they like to square off against each other and they like to win. I don't think they look at events like the Cup of China or the Nebelhorn trophy as beauty contests (?)

As for how Sasha decides to handle her training schedule this season, it's hard to know what advice to offer her (not that she asked me ). Maybe she feels it best to skate as many competitions as possible before Nationals. Maybe she will figure it is better to stay home in December and rest and practice.

I fully expect that Asada, Kim, Rochette, Ando and other strong Olympic hopefuls will do their best to win their Grand Prix events and to clobber the competition n the finals, rather than to lay back (like Casey at the bat) and say, "I'll just blow off the early season and save myself for Vancouver."

JMO.

[janetfan]

I think the ISU is trying its best to make skating into something more than just a once-every-four-years phenomenon. True, you don't become "immortal" by winning the Grand Prix Final. But you don't become immortal by winning the Olympic gold medal, either -- you just get your name in the almanac, along with who won the 100 meter hurdles in 2000 (Olga Shishigina).

I think the athletes by and large like to compete. I think they like to square off against each other and they like to win. I don't think they look at events like the Cup of China or the Nebelhorn trophy as beauty contests

Actually, I would tend to disagree with you about the importance and value for an American skater who wins an OGM in figure skating. I see no comparison to Brian Boitano, Dorothy Hamill, Peggy Flemimg, Scott Hamilton and the athletes who won the OGM in 110 meters high hurdle, or other sports that are not as important in USA. Other than Tara (who seems to have disappeared,) most of our OGM winning figure skaters have enjoyed a good life in the skating world with substancial and lasting fame. Others, like Dr. Tenley Albright or Sarah Hughes chose a more academic path after their comp careers were over and attended prestigious universities and still remain recognized for their accomplishment. I think you are right to say they are not "immortal" but to down play what winning the OGM meant to most of our skaters would not be factually very realisitc.
That is jmo.

I think the GP series is nice and good in many ways. I really can see no reason or significance to the GPF though and actually thinks it makes the other GP's very diminished in importance.
If a tennis player wins the US Open that is big! There is no "final" to go to because being champion of USA is a big deal. Being champion of France in tennis is a big deal. Being the winner of SA or TEB means almost nothing because the ISU says so. They say that you and the runners up have really not proven much and to be a GP champion you need to go to yet another event.
You can win a county beauty pageant but then you are told you have to enter and compete at the state level to become "Miss Michigan." But if you win that you are not much because you have to go to Miss America next. The GP's feel very similar to me.
I think they do it all wrong and that is why almost 99% of all Americans do not care about Skate America. It feels as meaningless to me as a "beauty pageant."
You may disagree with my silly analogies here - but unfortunately I am correct about what a meaningless event Skate America is in our country. It barely if ever makes the newspaper in most cities and I wonder if it has a future without major changes. In comparison to a GP medal, an OGM is close to immortality.

[Mathman]

I think the GP series is nice and good in many ways. I really can see no reason or significance to the GPF though and actually thinks it makes the other GP's very diminished in importance.

That is an excellent point. It is certainly true that the whole idea of the Grand Prix "series" and final was motivated by the ISU wanting to grab up control of all semi-independant figure skating events.

Back to the Jennifer Kirk article, here is my favorite part.

Following [2005] Worlds, [Michelle] joined the cast of Champions On Ice, and we toured across the country performing almost every night for a couple of months. After such a taxing season, and in the midst of all the travel, lack of training time and sleep as a result of the tour, most of us skaters were happy to perform a show number with one or two triples each evening. But not Kwan. Perhaps angered by her [relatively disappointing] performance at Worlds and fueled by the desire to amend that skate at an upcoming made-for-TV competition two weeks into the tour, Kwan went out every performance and skated her competitive long program under spotlights, without more than 20 minutes of practice each day, with no five minute warm-up, in full competition mode….

And the kicker? I never saw her miss a jump. In the time between Worlds and the Marshalls challenge, I never saw Michelle Kwan miss a triple jump–and she was performing six triples in her program per show. Now that is a champion and a competitor.

BTW, Michelle won that Marshall’s event, Sasha was second and Jennifer Kirk third. Michelle got straight 5.9’s on the second mark. This famous lunge, captured by photographer Michelle Woydila, is from that competition.

http://www.usfigureskating.org/conte...tion/kwan1.jpg

Lysacek won for the men, with Weir second and Goebel third.

[Joesitz]

I think that would be a nice touch. The fans would dig that one, and there could be some closure to her career. I wouldn't mind seeing that happen.

Of course you woulldn't. You would even encourage it. Here's a chance to rid ourselves of Kwan. Let's do it quickly. No?

[Mathman]

Actually, I would tend to disagree with you about the importance and value for an American skater who wins an OGM in figure skating. I see no comparison to Brian Boitano, Dorothy Hamill, Peggy Flemimg, Scott Hamilton and the athletes who won the OGM in 110 meters high hurdle, or other sports that are not as important in USA....

Well, I can't argue with the success of our famous gold medalists. Still, considering the Olympics strictly as a sporting event, I have to confess that I am not as impressed as I ought to be.

As a public spectacle, on the other hand, oh, yes!

Lets' say you are a javelin thrower. You go to the World Javelin Throwing Contest. You throw your javelin 100 meters. This is farther than anyone else and you win the World Championship in your sport.

Next year you go to the Olympic Games. You throw your javelin 100 meters. This is farther than anyone else and you win the gold medal.

The athletic achievement is the same, so what's the difference? The difference is, more people were watching the second time. Public spectacle.

That is why I admire Scott Hamilton more for winning the world championship of his sport four times than for winning a gold medal at the Olympics (especially since Brian Orser outskated him at Sarejevo. )

(Of course if Michelle Kwan comes back and wins in Vancouver I may change my tune. )

[janetfan]

Next year you go to the Olympic Games. You throw your javelin 100 meters. This is farther than anyone else and you win the gold medal.

The athletic achievement is the same, so what's the difference? The difference is, more people were watching the second time. Public spectacle.

That is why I admire Scott Hamilton more for winning the world championship of his sport four times than for winning a gold medal at the Olympics (especially since Brian Orser outskated him at Sarejevo. )

I agree with you about Scott's achievements but the vast majority who only saw him at the Olympics might not. Like you, I share a similar opinion - but I think we would be in a minority about this.
BTW, I think the sport of javelin throwing is highly over rated.
The ancient Greeks used to also play the now defunct sport of "javelin catching."
Unfortunately this once noble sport has died out do to the high insurance rates

[seniorita]

The ancient Greeks used to also play the now defunct sport of "javelin catching."
Unfortunately this once noble sport has died out do to the high insurance rates

lol! cool idea, i will apply it in plushthread

by the way, overrated?have you any idea what it needs to throw it just one meter from your feet?
I love classic athletics!