Olympics/World Championships Skating Requirements

seniorita said:

Hey MM, couldnt you correct also grammar and spelling if it was to demonstrate my post?

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I ran it through Spellchecker and the first thing that came up was, I spelled your name "Senioritia."

OK, speaking of long posts, here goes

janetfan said:

Johnny Weir had stated more than once publicly that he dislikes certain skaters and that he is resentful of their success.

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psycho said:

Examples? I want quotes and publications, since this is " on record".

I've read and watched more interviews with Weir than I am willing to admit, and never once did I get this from him.

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Here are Johnny’s own words about how he felt after not making the Worlds team.

http://www.figureskatersonline.com/johnnyweir/journal.html

Following the U.S. Championships disaster in Cleveland in January, I have really had to pick myself up. Immediately after the event I didn't know what to do with myself. I realized something very special in this time though; friends and family are two of the most important things in my life in happiness and sorrow. Not two days after my return, my best friend Christa visited from her recent tribulations at the European Championships to make sure I was alright and to make sure I wasn't dwelling, a week or so later my dear friend Michela flew over from Italy to take care of me, and through the visits and cuddles I received barrages of e-mails and phone calls from friends all over the world, not to mention many messages and cards from my fans. I was so low, and almost to the point of no return, and these people in my life in whatever capacity, just wanted to help me. It is something I will never take for granted again in this life. So of course, I need to express a very heart felt thank you to everyone who helped me get back on the wagon so to speak.

After the competition, I really didn't know what I wanted to do. It had been a disaster on all fronts. I was left off the podium and the World team for the first time since 2003. I had skated terribly. I was so disinterested in my sport and craft. I didn't want to see an ice rink ever again. Worst of all, I felt indifferent to what I was trying to accomplish. There are days when one hates ones own life and choices, but hate is still a form of love, the ultimate betrayal is to be indifferent. I didn't know what I should do to pick myself up. I would go into the rink to skate and leave in tears, I would eat everything I saw in front of me. I was completely and hopelessly falling into an abyss. It took a lot for me personally to swallow my pride and get on with my life. I was so damaged from my failure I suppose that I wasn't seeing anything in the "big picture".

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The blog goes on to describe all the positive things that happened over the next several months that got him back on track.

By the way, does anyone know who Johnny’s “best friend” Christa is? The only Christa competing at Europeans was ice dancer Christa Goulakos, competing for – guess what country? :agree: Goulakos and Yaeder did indeed face “tribulations” at Europeans, finishing 27th, and Greece sent a different team, Georgindis and Hockly, to Worlds instead.

Johnny did say on TV (with a smile) that he was jealous of Evan Lysacek because Lysacek has a world championship trophy and Johnny doesn't. But I don’t remember him ever saying that he thought skaters like Christa Goulakos and Nikki Georgindis did not deserve to compete at ISU championships.

I love Johnny!
Mr Mm, I didnt say you correct any error of yours, I meant mine
Senoritia sounds cool by the way!:agree:

What is all this stuff about diversity? Does Mao skate like Miki ,Yukari , or Fumi They are all very different and diverse to me. Does Evan skate like Johnny , Abbott, Adam or Ryan. Once again I find each one very different. Forget the federations or do we watch worlds to look at all the pretty flags. The fact of the matter is that not each skate has an equal chance to qualify for worlds based only on his or her skills.

I think the issue was not Worlds but Olympics. And there the flags are pretty.

seniorita said:

so we need not only paragraphs but also extra spacing between them?

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OK, one more and then I promise to stop.

The reason you have to doublespace between paragraphs is that the vBulletinboard sofware does not allow you to indent. If you try to begin a new line by hitting the space bar five times, the software will automatically move it over to the left-hand margin. So that style of paragraphing is not available on these boards.

1. It's already been mentioned, but I think that removing the idea of nationhood from the Olympics is a bad idea (and not one seriously discussed, admittedly). When the Sydney Games were going on and athletes from my parents' home country marched into the stadium during the Opening Ceremony, my dad actually teared up. The fundamental idea for the Olympics is athletes from different nations transcending geopolitical boundaries in a competition, but the nationhood is important to that. That said, I don't see Bianchetti's complaints really holding water for the Olympics as the number of competitors will be far fewer.

2. It seems to me that any system for deciding the best is going to be riddled with flaws.

a) I agree with increasing the number of skaters from any given nation to four (five seems like too much). The example of Japan is a great one: in the past three world championships, they've had two skaters in the top five (Ando/Asada; Asada/Nakano; Ando/Asada) and had three in the top ten this year. When you have three or four skaters capable of landing in the top ten at worlds, why should one be left out? It also seems churlish that Canada will only get two slots for pairs when three/four teams seem capable of top ten results (as another example). That stated, I don't think this should be at the expense of skaters from smaller federations.

b) I think we should also recognize that there's only so far figure skating can go. I mean, it's one thing to say South Korea. Quite another to say India (which isn't really a sporting nation). And quite another to say..... lets go with Morocco or something. Figure skating is never going to attain the worldwide popularity of say soccer/football, and while (again), no one is suggesting that, I think it's worth remembering that practically speaking, the potential for diversity in figure skating is quite limited, imo.

3. gkelly, your ideas are interesting.

a) Regarding the first, are there many examples of countries using Worlds to build up a federation/team? People have mentioned the Chinese pairs teams. Are there others? Is participation at worlds a spur to growth or merely the culmination thereof, I mean. If it's the former, I think your idea becomes difficult to explore simply because I can imagine skaters from poorer federations being left out (though, with the "one free entrant", perhaps not).

b) Your second idea runs into the same problems as have been mentioned throughout this thread. People are bothered by better skates being denied entry because of the strength of their nation in that discipline. People mention Joannie from Canada, but it might be fairer to suggest that Canada's second woman, whether Cynthia, Amelie or Mira would likely fair worse than any four or five American ladies.

That doesn't change with any idea of multiple qualifying tournaments - example, 4CC and Europeans. Using Ice Dancing at worlds, of the 24 teams that made the free dance, 7 were from the 4CC, 17 from Europe. So it would be easier for a skater to qualify at 4CC than Europeans, which leads to the same complaint about how it's unfair for certain skaters to get left behind because they aren't the strongest in their qualifying group when they're considerably stronger than those who can qualify in another group.

c) I like your third idea the best, and not so coincidentally, it's the most complicated. In fact, I like it enough that I almost hope it (or something like it) is attempted, because I do see it as fixing many concerns.

gkelly said:

All very true. Which is why I propose making the skaters/federations pay for the privilege of entering. At least that way there wouldn't be lots of frivolous entries by skaters who had no chance of qualifying for the final 24, unless they consider entering the initial round as a worthwhile investment in itself.

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But then you end up discriminating against skaters from poorer countries. If the entrance fee was $1000 (which i think you suggested in another thread) it would be a drop in the ocean to a skater from US/Japan/UK but a skater from Bulgaria or India might struggle to find that sort of money to compete. The sport is arguably elitist enough without havnig to pay a high price to compete.

Ant

janetfan said:

Again, many good points Ant. I am not sure if I disagree with any of them but it is interesting thinking about it.
As to Korea, so what?

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So what? SO WHAT?? This isn't about Yuna or Mao it is about skating. Your argument is based on the fact that in your opinion the best skaters don't get to compete at worlds, and your reaction to my argument that if we don't encourage smaller developing skating countries or ones that are in a slump we might never get to see what might turn into a great talent (like Yuna) and your reaction is so what? :scratch: She just won the world championship and is the best in the world - better than all of the ladies from other federations who stayed at home because they couldn't beat the ladies who came 1st, 2nd or 3rd at their nationals - the same ladies who failed to beat Yuna.

janetfan said:

They have had a skating federation for a long time now.
Many think it began 6 years ago. They would be wrong. Is skating so desperate that it can't survive without Yuna?

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No you've completely missed the point. It's not about one single skater but teh development of the sport as a whole.

Using your own argument back at you - is the sport so desperate that it can't survive with the fourth ranked japanese lady or the third ranked US lady?

janetfan said:

I happen to be a fan of Yuna but could care lessif she or Mao or anyone else wins the OGM next season. I hope we see some great skating and that the judging is not pre-determined or biased. That may be more than I can hope for from an ISU event, but I will still be glad to watch the competition.

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I guess i'm just confused now because you started out claiming that you wanted the best to be at the world championships but now you couldn't care less about who actually goes :scratch:

Audrey19 said:

They deserve to go if they are better than some of the skaters who only get to go because their federation can send a representative no matter how well this person skates. Based on their skating alone, who deserves to go more, Caroline or Maria? Due to the rules, Caroline didn't go although she easily would have beaten the majority of the present skaters.

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And yet Czisny failed to beat the a large number of the people there so who really got it wrong the ISU implementing their rule on maximum or the USFSA in selecting Czisny to go to worlds?


Ant

antmanb said:

So what? SO WHAT?? This isn't about Yuna or Mao it is about skating. Your argument is based on the fact that in your opinion the best skaters don't get to compete at worlds, and your reaction to my argument that if we don't encourage smaller developing skating countries or ones that are in a slump we might never get to see what might turn into a great talent (like Yuna) and your reaction is so what? :scratch: She just won the world championship and is the best in the world - better than all of the ladies from other federations who stayed at home because they couldn't beat the ladies who came 1st, 2nd or 3rd at their nationals - the same ladies who failed to beat Yuna.

I guess i'm just confused now because you started out claiming that you wanted the best to be at the world championships but now you couldn't care less about who actually goes :scratch:

Ant

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The "so what" was not meant in the way you took it. Korea is not a poor country and not such a small country either. When the term "Korean miracle" is used, believe it or not it is not about Yuna And skating is not so new to Korea, they just haven't spent alot of money developing their figure skating program. They have spent very large sums (more than most federations) on short track and speed skating. I say "so what" if they have a WC now. Same as I would say "so what" about a Japanese champion.
It is hardly unusual that a country with a skating program as big as Korea should produce a WC. What is surprising is that it took them so long. They have had many WC's in short track and skating is popular there and there are many rinks in the country. The whole point is that Korea is not a developing country or a developing skating country. It spends alot on it's skating program. Because of Yuna maybe other parts of their figure skating will get better. But we are still waiting for the Japanese to do the same thing. For that matter we are waiting for the Brits to field a decent team.
Again I say, "so what" as to whether England will return to any prominence in the sport. Figure skating will go on with or without great English skaters as it will go on whether the Japanese or Korean Federations can field decent Pairs or Dance teams.

My point was not about the need to deveope figure skating all over the world. That is a good idea but a different topic.
I was saying that I would like to see most of the best skaters in the world participate in so called WC's or the Olympics.
I dont care who wins the OGM but that doesn't mean I don't care about skating. I am just not concerned if it is Yuna or Mao or whoever. I only hope it will be fair and not marred by controversy.

janetfan said:

The "so what" was not meant in the way you took it.

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I still reserve my right to be a drama queen though

janetfan said:

Korea is not a poor country and not such a small country either. When the term "Korean miracle" is used, believe it or not it is not about Yuna

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I can't say i've heard the term "Korean Miracle" used so i wouldn't think of Yuna. whether the country is poor or big is really irrlevant to the discussion it is much more about whether they have a figure skating histroy and if they could ever make it to a world championships if they weren't automatically qualified one place per federation. I thought the Yuna example was a good one since Korea didn't have a history of having fifure skaters but the argument applies equally (for me anyway) to skaters like Tugba Karademir and Fleur Maxwell. World championships would not have been as enjoyable in the past without them there.

janetfan said:

And skating is not so new to Korea, they just haven't spent alot of money developing their figure skating program.

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And would they have spent the momey if it weren't for the fact they had a strong skater? Would that skater have been able to compete at worlds if the numbers of skaters the strong federations could send was uncapped?

janetfan said:

They have spent very large sums (more than most federations) on short track and speed skating. I say "so what" if they have a WC now. Same as I would say "so what" about a Japanese champion.

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But IMO that just isn't comparable. One of my biggest complaints about the ISU is that speed skating and figure skating shouldn't be lumped in together because other than the blades on teh feet (which are very different in each sport) they have absolutely nothing in common. Success in speed skating does not equal success in figure skating - see GB for another example of this.

janetfan said:

It is hardly unusual that a country with a skating program as big as Korea should produce a WC. What is surprising is that it took them so long. They have had many WC's in short track and skating is popular there and there are many rinks in the country. The whole point is that Korea is not a developing country or a developing skating country.

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As i've already said i don't think you can compare speed skating with figure skating they're totally different sports and just because a lot of money is spent on one and that leads to success it doesn't mean that the other will also come along.

janetfan said:

It spends alot on it's skating program. Because of Yuna maybe other parts of their figure skating will get better. But we are still waiting for the Japanese to do the same thing. For that matter we are waiting for the Brits to field a decent team.

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Exactly but if the less successful nations aren't allowed to field a team how will they ever get better? It's chicken and egg again.

janetfan said:

Again I say, "so what" as to whether England will return to any prominence in the sport. Figure skating will go on with or without great English skaters as it will go on whether the Japanese or Korean Federations can field decent Pairs or Dance teams.

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So i'd ask you again why do you care if the 4th placed japanese lady and third placed US lady isn't at worlds? So what?

janetfan said:

My point was not about the need to deveope figure skating all over the world. That is a good idea but a different topic.

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I think the World Championships is very much linked to development of elite skating as that is the ultimate goal.

janetfan said:

I was saying that I would like to see most of the best skaters in the world participate in so called WC's or the Olympics.

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But unless you allow people from all over the world to compete you are not getting that world championship you are getting a skewed version of the "best" depending on the criteria you use to allow skaters to enter. Don't forget that the Olympic is a totally different thing anyway - the limits are the same regardless of the sport - Tennis for example. For a tennis player Olympic gold means very little certainly when compared to any of the grand slams.

Ant

Oh this is 1km of a post with paragraphs and spacing, i will print it for my lunch break.

antmanb said:

I still reserve my right to be a drama queen though



I can't say i've heard the term "Korean Miracle" used so i wouldn't think of Yuna. whether the country is poor or big is really irrlevant to the discussion it is much more about whether they have a figure skating histroy and if they could ever make it to a world championships if they weren't automatically qualified one place per federation. I thought the Yuna example was a good one since Korea didn't have a history of having fifure skaters but the argument applies equally (for me anyway) to skaters like Tugba Karademir and Fleur Maxwell. World championships would not have been as enjoyable in the past without them there.


And would they have spent the momey if it weren't for the fact they had a strong skater? Would that skater have been able to compete at worlds if the numbers of skaters the strong federations could send was uncapped?



But IMO that just isn't comparable. One of my biggest complaints about the ISU is that speed skating and figure skating shouldn't be lumped in together because other than the blades on teh feet (which are very different in each sport) they have absolutely nothing in common. Success in speed skating does not equal success in figure skating - see GB for another example of this.




As i've already said i don't think you can compare speed skating with figure skating they're totally different sports and just because a lot of money is spent on one and that leads to success it doesn't mean that the other will also come along.



Exactly but if the less successful nations aren't allowed to field a team how will they ever get better? It's chicken and egg again.



So i'd ask you again why do you care if the 4th placed japanese lady and third placed US lady isn't at worlds? So what?



I think the World Championships is very much linked to development of elite skating as that is the ultimate goal.



But unless you allow people from all over the world to compete you are not getting that world championship you are getting a skewed version of the "best" depending on the criteria you use to allow skaters to enter. Don't forget that the Olympic is a totally different thing anyway - the limits are the same regardless of the sport - Tennis for example. For a tennis player Olympic gold means very little certainly when compared to any of the grand slams.

Ant

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Ant, I will gladly concede all of these well thought out points you are making. That seems to be much easier than trying to figure out how to use the confangled "multi-quotes" at GS.
please, no one tell seniorita what "confangled" means

janetfan said:

Ant, I will gladly concede all of these well thought out points you are making. That seems to be much easier than trying to figure out how to use the confangled "multi-quotes" at GS.
please, no one tell seniorita what "confangled" means

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I just copy and paste the "quote" and sqaure brackets and "end-quote" and sqaure brackets around the part i want to quote!

And i still reserve my right to be a drama queen...especially when seniorita's away for so long - i'll take over her mantle!

Ant

antmanb said:

I just copy and paste the "quote" and sqaure brackets and "end-quote" and sqaure brackets around the part i want to quote!

And i still reserve my right to be a drama queen...especially when seniorita's away for so long - i'll take over her mantle!

Ant

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Thanks ant, I will try and see if I can get it to work. Of course this means my posts could get even longer. Is that really such a good idea for GS?


She thought of me taking over the guardianship of the Plushy topic - but wisely decided I am not to be trusted. Congratulations and I am sure you will do a great job praising all things Plushy while she is gone.

i'll take over her mantle!

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You will steal my throne AND my dress?

Sorry for the OffTopic but you both write pages of pages about COP and you cant use the multiple quote?
and both stop embarassing me in front of other people,this is not the plushy thread.

antmanb said:

I can't say i've heard the term "Korean Miracle" used so i wouldn't think of Yuna. whether the country is poor or big is really irrlevant to the discussion it is much more about whether they have a figure skating histroy and if they could ever make it to a world championships if they weren't automatically qualified one place per federation. I thought the Yuna example was a good one since Korea didn't have a history of having fifure skaters but the argument applies equally (for me anyway) to skaters like Tugba Karademir and Fleur Maxwell. World championships would not have been as enjoyable in the past without them there.
Ant

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The "Korean Miracle" was a term used to describe the rapid economic growth and successful industrialization Korea experienced a decade ago.

Perhaps I am getting away from your point - but my point was to show that Korea has a strong skating program that in certain areas has been very successful. A problem Yuna used to have was getting enough ice time because the Korean federation is so devoted to short track and speed skating.

If a country decides to devote 95% of their skating resources to short track I don't see why that should get them any special treatment when it comes to figure skating. Of course that may change with Yuna's success - but Yuna's case is very unique imo. I don't see how she can be used as an example when she appears to be a once in a generation type of talent. England could sink alot of money trying to find a "Yuna" but there is no guarantee they would be successful. It could help improve the state of figure skating in the UK - but again, that is not the issue I was addressing and feels like a different topic "How do we improve figure skating world wide"

If Korea does not have more world class figure skaters it is partially because they are so fanatical about other areas of skating. Meantime, they will have a second skater in the Ladies - and she is not bad. USA and Japan have so many better than her though and that is what I think is unfair. Fumie might not get to Vancouver but a second Korean skater ranked maybe 30th in the world will. That is nice, a wonderful thing for Korea and their second skater. But anyway you cut the deck it basically sucks for Fumie, Caroline, and other skaters that are so much better. Doesn't the hard work and sacrifices they and their families have made count for anything?

They are being excluded for one reason only and that is because they come from a strong federation.
I honestly don't know why I feel so strongly about this but it just feels so unfair.

And a world championship should not have 15- 20 skaters that have absolutely no chance of beating 10-20 other skaters who are so clearly and totally superior but are forbidden to compete by politicized rules.
It is a system that rewards mediocrity and punishes achievement. It is a system that keeps speedy in power. It can't be considered a real world championship either.

janetfan said:

USA and Japan have so many better than her though and that is what I think is unfair. Fumie might not get to Vancouver but a second Korean skater ranked maybe 30th in the world will. That is nice, a wonderful thing for Korea and their second skater. But anyway you cut the deck it basically sucks for Fumie, Caroline, and other skaters that are so much better. Doesn't the hard work and sacrifices they and their families have made count for anything?

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Don't you realize that you can say essentially the same thing about the skaters that you want to cut out of the competition - that "Doesn't the hard work and sacrifices they and their families have made count for anything?"

i love to skate said:

Don't you realize that you can say essentially the same thing about the skaters that you want to cut out of the competition - that "Doesn't the hard work and sacrifices they and their families have made count for anything?"

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Of course you could say that. But maybe they haven't sacrificed or trained as hard as the better skaters. We don't really know the answer to that.
But aside from that, how do you justify a WC when there is a good chance the medals are tarnished. Maybe the bronze medalist wins their medal because Miki or Yukari is sitting at home and was not allowed to compete. That doesn't feel like a very legit WC medal to me. I would always place an asterik next to it.

janetfan said:

Of course you could say that. But maybe they haven't sacrificed or trained as hard as the better skaters. We don't really know the answer to that.

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That is an awful thing to say! Amateur athletes train their butts off and make enormous sacrifices. Skaters from smaller federations face a huge uphill battle in getting coaching, ice and access to competitions.

It is really starting to seem that you are "looking down" on skaters that you don't deem deserving enough or that skaters only deserve to go to Worlds if they have sacrificed a required amount. Please.

i love to skate said:

That is an awful thing to say! Amateur athletes train their butts off and make enormous sacrifices. It is really starting to seem that you are "looking down" on skaters that you don't deem deserving enough or that skaters only deserve to go to Worlds if they have sacrificed a required amount. Please.

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I dont mean it that way. But I agree with you that these skaters train so hard. That is why I feel it is unfair that some of the very best don't get to compete.
But that is the way skating has been so I can see how my point is not acceptable to many here.