What Defines a Musical Skater? | Page 2 | Golden Skate

What Defines a Musical Skater?

seniorita

Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 3, 2008
I think Irina was artistic, she could catch you with her performances but she was not a ballerina.
Some skaters are just wonderful even if they are skate circles around the ring to the music. This is artistry gift or musicality?
 

Alicja

On the Ice
Joined
Jan 17, 2009
OK, your comments for me are great!
I just wonder though - when you are playing the piano perhaps your objective is to interpret the composer's intent as closely as possible. That is one type of musicality. When Charlie Parker was playing a great jazz chorus on "Indiana" I think he was showing a musical genius the world had never seen at that time. He wasn't really expressing the composer's original intent. He was expressing his own feelings and musicality. Is that any less musical than a classical performer trying to play Mozart the way Mozart had intended?
It might be interesting to hear from some dancers or skaters or gymnasts and their feelings about musicality, how it was taught them from an interpretive point.
Skating is so unique - unlike dancing it can provide at time's an almost magical gliding feeling along with other elements provided by skates meeting ice.


No, that's not less musical. I honestly think though that it makes a difference whether you're purposely alterating the original form or alterating because you don't know any better. That's the main point here, I think. In one case, you practically make an existing piece your own, in the other case, you try to interpret and express the original form but fail.
 

dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Country
United-States
As to the relation of playing a musical instrument to either artistry or musicality in skating, you might or might not want to consider the following:

AFAIR, Mira Leung apparently is a fairly good pianist.

Charlie White played in the school string quartet.
 
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Joined
Jun 21, 2003
^ Bebe Liang :love: is very accomplished on the piano. I would say she is musical, but not very artistic.
 

janetfan

Match Penalty
Joined
May 15, 2009
I think Irina was artistic, she could catch you with her performances but she was not a ballerina.
Some skaters are just wonderful even if they are skate circles around the ring to the music. This is artistry gift or musicality?

I would say it can be both to varying degrees.

Earlier I mentioned Yuna and then seniorita did. We had differing opinions. .
People are reluctant to admit it (it seems that way to me) but Cop and the choreo intensive programs of today have changed the entire way skaters present themsleves. Forget that 6.0 might have been worse or better than CoP.

My point is that today I see skaters looking like rabbits running from a fox. OK, an exageration - but all of the arm waving and bending and dipping has nothing to do with musicality imo. If a skater can keep in time with the music and smile on key and do everything right in a program - then we will say they were artisitic and/or musical. But I don't see the more soulful programs Michelle and Sasha gave us and I miss them.

After Worlds Yuna was hailed as the best lady skater in the world.
I dont think a clean Mao would have beaten Yuna in LA because the way she intepreted her choreo felt very unsettling to me. Mao's SP in particular may have had beautiful choreo but it was not skated very musically. It felt superficial, unemotional and just didn't have the flow to the music we expect from a World champion.

Yuna came out and skated dramatically and passionately- and more importantly her skating was in sync with the music
I felt that Yuna was musical and Mao was not at worlds. I felt that way about both of their programs.

I am not convinced Yuna is a more musical skater than Mao - but I believe she was at worlds. In fact it was no contest imo.

There are factors like a coaching change to consider and other things. Yuna's music semed perfectly suited for her and Mao"s seemed wrong for her.

It is interesting to watch three Americans - Evan, Johnny and Jeremy. I think one of the three feels and interprets music at a much higher level than the other two.
If he skates clean he will beat them - but he can't beat them on superior musicality alone.

I never felt great musicality from any of the recent Russian male champions.Their musicality was good or even better than average but not that impressive to me. They were extremely dramattic and very theatrical - and of course technically superior. It was enough to win but not sure if any of them approached Kurt Browning at his best when it came to musical interpretation.
 
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silver.blades

Medalist
Joined
Jan 4, 2007
Country
Canada
In my dance class we were marked on musicality. Getting a good musicality mark essentially meant that you were able to stay on time with the music and hit the steps on the right counts without making it look mechanical like you were thinking through it.

My teacher always explained artistry as the artistic intent behind a work or performance. The dancers she deemed the most artistic were the ones that had a plan, intention and/or story behind their movements, who had an emotional connection to the movement and were able to convey that connection to the audience.
 

Medusa

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 6, 2007
Musicality is innate. I think everyone is musical to some extend, yes - even Joubert and Lysacek. But musicality has to be awakened, you have to allow yourself to get a feeling for melodies, for rhythms, you have to open up to the emotionality of music. You have to flow with it, take the different feelings, ideas, fantasies, imaginations and impulses the music initiates in you and turn them into movements.

But just because you can do that, doesn't mean it translates to the ice. Examples are skaters who are just too shy, where the movements have no conviction. These skaters can very well be musical, but it just doesn't translate to the ice. Then there are skaters who have the tendency to be very nervous and tense, and sometimes every musicality goes out of the window then - e.g. Weir but also Abbott.

Musicality isn't always expressed in just one way. I know that some Asada fans criticise that Kim depends so much on her facial expressions. But there are so many different ways to express your connection to the music, and Kim uses her facial expressions. Browning and Brezina use their feet, Weir has a way of expressing the music with his elegant arms (well, until 2006 at least), Abbott uses everything except for his face.

I feel that guys like Lysacek "Uhh, what's classical music? Is that something extraterrestrial?" and Joubert "Every time I expressed some melody with arms and upper body, would make me, OMG, g..g...ggg...ga...gay!" limit themselves, and the worst thing is - both do it on purpose. (Ahemm, those aren't literal quotes) Just go speedskating already, or play ice-hockey! But Joubert only after an Olympic medal, I still like him (don't look at me, heck, I'm only human and female on the top of it).

And real artistry can't exist witout musicality. You can be charming, innovative etc. without musicality. But you can't be artistic without being musical.
 
Joined
Mar 14, 2006
This is almost unanswerable. I guess I find skaters musical when they:

* move to the rhythm of the music
* find a personal way to express the emotional heights of the music - usually by a combination of facial expression and gesture (esp. head movements)
* generally convince me they HEAR the music at all! So often the music is just a backdrop and could be anything!

Musicality is pretty rare among skaters and I do NOT think they all have, or could develop it. Plus, as Janetfan said, hearing it and expressing it are really two different things. A lot more people can hear it than express it - otherwise we'd all be Dinu Lipattis or Willie Nelsons or Tatiana Troyanoses.

Also, people can be musical with regard to some types of music and not others. Just because Sasha Cohen is amazing when she skates to Russian music doesn't mean she'd seem musical when skating to, say, Willie Nelson. The same goes for us spectators, of course. She could be as musical as all get-out with Russian music, but if I only like Michael Jackson, I'm not going to see it.
 

passion

On the Ice
Joined
Sep 17, 2005
This is almost unanswerable. I guess I find skaters musical when they:

* move to the rhythm of the music
* find a personal way to express the emotional heights of the music - usually by a combination of facial expression and gesture (esp. head movements)
* generally convince me they HEAR the music at all! So often the music is just a backdrop and could be anything!

I agree. In dance, the term musicality refers to moving in time with the music. Regardless of how one defines musicality, it always involves listening to what the music does, and in skating, being able to skate with the ebbs and flows of the music (in time, of course). I think skating doesn't properly train that because attention is placed on all the different technical aspects required of skating. I think one must take dance lessons to really work on musicality. Music lessons help, but dance lessons is more applicable to skating because it involves moving your body to music. That's why I think taking dance lessons is really critical for someone who wants to take their skating seriously since skating lessons doesn't address musicality sufficiently.
 
Joined
Mar 14, 2006
I agree. In dance, the term musicality refers to moving in time with the music. Regardless of how one defines musicality, it always involves listening to what the music does, and in skating, being able to skate with the ebbs and flows of the music (in time, of course). I think skating doesn't properly train that because attention is placed on all the different technical aspects required of skating. I think one must take dance lessons to really work on musicality. Music lessons help, but dance lessons is more applicable to skating because it involves moving your body to music. That's why I think taking dance lessons is really critical for someone who wants to take their skating seriously since skating lessons doesn't address musicality sufficiently.
Well, I took ballet for a couple of years and I was never able to dance musically. I hear the music, all right, but you'd never know it by watching me. :frown: And I've seen many unmusical dancers, alas!

Why one dance or skater is "transparent" to the music and another is opaque is a mystery to me.

I think dance training might help more with other aspects of artistry - esp. to get the skater to focus more on line and posture.
 

oleada

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 27, 2007
Re:Irina - while she wasn't the most polished or graceful skater out there, she was fantastic at presenting her programs. I'm not sure if that's artistry, but she sure could sell a program.
 

cvg16

Rinkside
Joined
Nov 14, 2008
In dance, at least for me, the first step towards musicality is counting the 8's (or 3's) of the music and then timing your movements according to the beat of that counting. Steps are done with the beat of the music and sets of steps are grouped according to the music phrases. Then comes the characteristic of the music - whether its sharp or soft and your movement has to reflect that.

I have no formal skating training but I am under the impression that the steps/moves are not learned while there is a music playing. Can a skater learn say a jump in such a way that maybe she reaches back on count 1, plants her toepick on count 2, rotates from count 2.5 - 3, and lands on count 4 (or maybe in a faster sequence of counts)? Can she time her brackets such that her count is and 1, and 2, and 3, and 4? I say basic musicality is as rigid as that. But when it comes to the skating program, I think the choreographer should be as responsible as the skater in making sure the steps intended are in time with the music - both rhythm, characteristics and the stress.

Artistry, I would say is moving beyond being strictly musical and really feeling the music in your bones. Being expressive of the feel of the music, while being not musical, is ok I guess, but this overall lack of musicality in skating sometimes bothers me.
 

evangeline

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 7, 2007
I never felt great musicality from any of the recent Russian male champions.Their musicality was good or even better than average but not that impressive to me. They were extremely dramattic and very theatrical - and of course technically superior. It was enough to win but not sure if any of them approached Kurt Browning at his best when it came to musical interpretation.

This (relatively) recent Russian male champion says, "BOW DOWN to my superior musicality!" with his performances. ;)


I feel that guys like Lysacek "Uhh, what's classical music? Is that something extraterrestrial?" and Joubert "Every time I expressed some melody with arms and upper body, would make me, OMG, g..g...ggg...ga...gay!" limit themselves, and the worst thing is - both do it on purpose. (Ahemm, those aren't literal quotes) Just go speedskating already, or play ice-hockey! But Joubert only after an Olympic medal, I still like him (don't look at me, heck, I'm only human and female on the top of it).

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
 

Tonichelle

Idita-Rock-n-Roll
Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 27, 2003
where Johnny and Evan differ greatest is in how they present and see both their music and their skating... Johnny is incredibly musical, but he skates inside himself and seemingly FOR himself. Not in a selfish way but it's like his own little secret. "This is how I feel and see and hear this music... if you get it great, if not, fine..."

Evan is in your face and listens to the music and makes it work FOR HIM... he is not just skating the music, but he's not hitting every nuance of the piece either. He is all about the explosive power of music and uses the crescendos to help stir the emotion within himself and the audience (probably one of the many reasons why he uses the tried and true musical choices, he knows how and where it will stir the audience).

I agree that you can be very good playing/singing and still not be musical... you have to truly feel and understand what you're playing/singing... I think passion in what you are doing/listening to/playing has a lot to do with it... I would argue that all skaters truly passionate in their sport and artform have a degree of musicality... some just more so than others...


(and yes Kurt is possibly the best of all time, but then again I'm incredibly biased when it comes to him ;))
 

Buttercup

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 25, 2008
musicality has to be awakened, you have to allow yourself to get a feeling for melodies, for rhythms, you have to open up to the emotionality of music. You have to flow with it, take the different feelings, ideas, fantasies, imaginations and impulses the music initiates in you and turn them into movements.
Really the entire post is great, but this in particular is a good observation.

Joubert "Every time I expressed some melody with arms and upper body, would make me, OMG, g..g...ggg...ga...gay!"[/I] limit themselves, and the worst thing is - both do it on purpose. (Ahemm, those aren't literal quotes) Just go speedskating already, or play ice-hockey!
The unfortunate thing is that I think Joubert is perfectly capable of being more expressive in his programs, but it's not in his comfort zone for competitive skating. After the Worlds gala, some people were really surprised - Joubert skating to non-techno, non-soundtrack music and doing it well! I wish he could bring some of that into his competitive programs. I don't know why he doesn't. Maybe he figures if it's not broken he shouldn't fix it. But I would like to see him with two programs next season that are musically and stylistically different from each other. Albena, Maxim, please make him do that!

p.s. Joubert wanted to do hockey as a child but picked figure skating because he liked jumping. Ha, is anyone surprised? ;)
 

Nigel

On the Ice
Joined
Feb 21, 2006
That is a very interesting reply and I almost used them for an example.
What I wonder about is the fact that Caroline is supposedly a very good violin player. Caroline is a musician and AFAIK Rachael is not.

We get into a question of technique here I think. Watching some of Caroline's Gala skates I would say she is the most musical skater of all the USA ladies. Watching Rachael skate competitively I see a young lady more assured of her technique. Her artistry and ability to express it looks more self assured to me than either Caroline or Mirai at this point.

To me Rachael is a more artistic (to me that means she can express what she is trying to do very well) and Caroline is more musical but not always in competitive events. It shows up in her show skating.
As a musician myself, I belive Caroline has a tremendous advantage over most skaters interpreting music but I see a need for stronger technique to realize her potential.

That said, I think Rachael is musical skater but I think her technique and artistry are better at this point.
This is very subjective and just my opinion and you may very well be right and I might be wrong.
I am known to be a big Caroline fan. :)

Flatt is a musician and has played the piano for over 10 years.
See Hersh's comment in his blog:
http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/chi-081021-rachael-flatt-skate-america,0,3740434.story
 

janetfan

Match Penalty
Joined
May 15, 2009
Flatt is a musician and has played the piano for over 10 years.
See Hersh's comment in his blog:
http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/chi-081021-rachael-flatt-skate-america,0,3740434.story

Thanks for the link. Acording to comments by Rachael's coach and choerographer she REALLY needs to step up and improve her somewhat immature presentations and become more artisitic.
I agree with them. It is mentioned that Lori picked Debussy to force Rachael to listen to the music more carefully, hoping her piano lesson would help her.

Not exactly an endorsement of Rachael's musicality on ice when both her coach and choreographer note it as a weakness that needs improving.

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Originally Posted by oleada
Re:Irina - while she wasn't the most polished or graceful skater out there, she was fantastic at presenting her programs. I'm not sure if that's artistry, but she sure could sell a program.
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I think that is a good point. The definitions of terms like "artistic," "musical." and "athletic" can be applied to skaters. These terms , depending on how they are used can have different meanings.

In the USA the term "artistic" can be used for many things. We might describe a carpenter or woodworker, making some new kitchen cabinets by saying, "look at the beautiful cabinets he built. He is a real "artist."

I watch aspects of Irina's skating, watch the beauty of some of her jumps and think, "Irina is such an artistic jumper." But I never thought of Irina as the most "lyrical" skater. But I thought she was a dynamic skater.

Another term, "lyrical" to consider. Shizuka is frequently refered to as being a "lyrical" skater. I think that is used to describe her musicality - but doesn't it also apply to some of her positions and extensions? I could imagine watching Shiz skating over the ice, practicing without music and still think she might strike me as being lyrical. Am I now confusing lyrical with "beautiful."
Do we do that with Sasha as well. And maybe Caroline?

Kristi has not been mentioned, but I would always include her as being one the very most musical skaters.
 
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MK's Winter

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 9, 2009
One of the most musical skaters, imo, is Oksana Baiul. I remember watching her short program from Worlds in 93. She became the music, her expression and movement went with every note and she was captivating. Kurt Browning is also awesome musically, he could just draw you in.
 

Medusa

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 6, 2007
Another term, "lyrical" to consider. Shizuka is frequently refered to as being a "lyrical" skater. I think that is used to describe her musicality - but doesn't it also apply to some of her positions and extensions? I could imagine watching Shiz skating over the ice, practicing without music and still think she might strike me as being lyrical. Am I now confusing lyrical with "beautiful."
Do we do that with Sasha as well. And maybe Caroline?
I have no idea if Shizuka is musical or not - she just always skates to the same type of music, it always looks great because she is so elegant, has such great flexibility and extension and fantastic skating skills.

Same goes for Miss Zhang, they don't skate to the music - they just try to match the music, which works well if you have those incredible highlights as their spiral sequences and the Ina Bauer and the spins.

I wouldn't put Cohen into the same category, she skated to upbeat music and did it very well in my opinion.
 
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