What Defines a Musical Skater? | Page 4 | Golden Skate

What Defines a Musical Skater?

ImaginaryPogue

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Jun 3, 2009
Fascinating thread. I've never really thought about qualifying the difference between "artistic" and "musical" because I tend to favour the athleticism above all else (I don't see figure skating as an art), but it's been really neat to read.
 

janetfan

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May 15, 2009
Fascinating thread. I've never really thought about qualifying the difference between "artistic" and "musical" because I tend to favour the athleticism above all else (I don't see figure skating as an art), but it's been really neat to read.

I think a certain consensus has been reached that this is a very subjective topic. It is not easy to agree on the meaning of the question let alone the answers :)

But we do hear about skaters being referred to as artistic, musical, dramatic, lyrical, bravura, expressive, and certainly athletic.

There seem to be many interesting and differing opinions about it.

Who are the athletic skaters? And what other qualities do athletic skaters need to get themselves on the podium?
 

ImaginaryPogue

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Jun 3, 2009
Well, I think a skater like Elvis Stoijko got on the podium for the sheer breadth of his athleticism. He was a very powerful skater. Timothy Goebel and Surya Bonaly as well. Midori Ito.
 

janetfan

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Well, I think a skater like Elvis Stoijko got on the podium for the sheer breadth of his athleticism. He was a very powerful skater. Timothy Goebel and Surya Bonaly as well. Midori Ito.

What about today? Mao does 3A's ? Joannie is considered a powerful and graceful skater.

What about Joubert or Evan? Those two are not considered ballet dancers, but have won championships and many medals. And what about Plushenko? Would he be considered an athletic skater?

I think an athletic skater can also have other qualities. I do remember seeing Elvis skate Live and he was way more impressive to me than he was on TV.
I have heard others say the same thing about Evan, that in person he is more exciting.
 

ImaginaryPogue

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Jun 3, 2009
I wouldn't consider any of the skaters you mention as predominantly athletic skaters, in the sense that all other elements (artistry, musicality, showmanship) are dwarfed by it. I guess Evan Lysacek could be considered, but I think Joubert's a showman through and through; that Mao Asada's almost reckless artistry makes her very engaging (though she is extremely athletic). Don't really know about Joannie, though I can definitely see why her name would come up
 

janetfan

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I wouldn't consider any of the skaters you mention as predominantly athletic skaters, in the sense that all other elements (artistry, musicality, showmanship) are dwarfed by it. I guess Evan Lysacek could be considered, but I think Joubert's a showman through and through; that Mao Asada's almost reckless artistry makes her very engaging (though she is extremely athletic). Don't really know about Joannie, though I can definitely see why her name would come up

But one of the things that surprised me when I saw Elvis skate Live was his showmanship.
I dont know if just being athletic is enough in today's skating world.
When I mentioned Joanie it wasn't to suggest she is not artistic - in fact going back, Dorothy Hamill was referred to at times as being an athletic skater.

It sounds like you are describing a one -dimensional type of skater - but I am sure that is not what you mean.
If there are no pure athletic skaters today - what would be the reason(s) for that?
 

janetfan

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May 15, 2009
I have been thinking about the "heritage" of "musical skating.
From what I have seen and read the level of musical interpretation we look and hope for today began with Janet Lynn. Did it start sooner?

Looking at USA Ladies I think the next great musical skater was Kristi. Without getting into a comparison I think it continued on with Michelle and Sasha.

What about European or Asian Ladies? There must be some of them, whether they were WC's or not who could also be considered musical skaters.

I think of Chen-Lu and Yuko Sata. I really liked both ot them - and found their skating different but equally enjoyable. And for me, Shizuka skates like a dream.

What about Kat? Her resume is untouchable in the modern era and surely she was not just a more attractive version of Trixie Schuba with a better costume.

Irina has already been rejected and a few don't even think she was an artist on the ice. How is it possible that none of the Russian or German ladies from the recent past have not been considered musical skaters? It is somewhat ironic that the music from German and Russian composers is used over and over by skaters. (OK, Bizet was French :))

When we argue over Michelle vs Sasha I wonder about other ladies? Weren't any of them musical skaters too?
 
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katiedear

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Mar 7, 2007
Tim Goeble

When Timmy Goeble was a young skater he was Elvis and Frank Sinatra all rolled into one. When he grew up he was neither artistic nor musical.
 
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Jul 11, 2003
I can understand a discussion on Musicality. We are obliged to watch the skating tricks be judged while listening to music, and I can freely say that a certain skater (not necessarily my favorite) has a lot of music in his/her body. It's there to see without any reference to nationality. However, I am convinced the Sport should dump the music and judge the elements only. When you think of a Worlds Championship and watch 30 skaters and only one or two have musicality (and don't medal, by the way) what is the point of using music?

This leads right into Art. Should these skaters be ranked with DaVinci? Beethoven? Shakespeare? Cervantes? Ulanova? Callas? Kurosawa? Streep? to name just a few?

I do believe in the Art Of as in the art of athletics, of plumbing, of embroidery, of cabinetry, and so many other crafts which are special to all concerned. I could put certain Figure Skaters in that grouping, but not along side of DaVinci.
 

janetfan

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I can understand a discussion on Musicality. We are obliged to watch the skating tricks be judged while listening to music, and I can freely say that a certain skater (not necessarily my favorite) has a lot of music in his/her body. It's there to see without any reference to nationality. However, I am convinced the Sport should dump the music and judge the elements only. When you think of a Worlds Championship and watch 30 skaters and only one or two have musicality (and don't medal, by the way) what is the point of using music?

This leads right into Art. Should these skaters be ranked with DaVinci? Beethoven? Shakespeare? Cervantes? Ulanova? Callas? Kurosawa? Streep? to name just a few?

I do believe in the Art Of as in the art of athletics, of plumbing, of embroidery, of cabinetry, and so many other crafts which are special to all concerned. I could put certain Figure Skaters in that grouping, but not along side of DaVinci.


Good points Joe - but first off, there is music - and there has been music for a long time in figure skating. Whether some of us like it or not, we hear the terms "musical, artistic, lyrical, dramatic and athletic" used to describe skaters all of the time.

I understand you are expressing a purist pov - but couldn't one also say no more music for ballet or modern dance too? And just forget the story and choreography and only judge Dancers on how they perform various elements?

Maybe you have a good idea - part of skating could go back to something along the lines of school figures, expanded to include jumps and other elements. The problem I see there is getting people into the arenas to watch it - let alone any type of TV coverage.

But aside from all of that - is it fair from almost any pov to compare Michelle or Yagudin or any skater to Leonardo Da Vinci? You seem prejudiced against the art of mathematics and physics by not using Sir Isaac Newton. He was brilliant and had about as much in common to figure skating as Da Vinci, Michelangelo or Bellini.

I also don't see why you think it is wrong to think of a skater's nationality (my last post was broader and thought in continental regions). There are schools of skating that have more or less existed although today they are less defined.
I was just watching Kat from 1984 and she was so totally different than Roz Sumners - there is no doubt that one represented a Euro style of skating and the other a North American style. Maybe that is less apparent today with coaches and skaters living and training all over the world.
But I don't see what is wrong with asking about the "musicality" of European Lady skaters since none of them were mentioned (except negatively) in a topic about "skating and musicality."
Did I misunderstand the meaning of your post?
 
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Joined
Jun 21, 2003
I have been thinking about the "heritage" of "musical skating.

From what I have seen and read the level of musical interpretation we look and hope for today began with Janet Lynn. Did it start sooner?

I wish we had footage from the days of Jackson Haines, who was the first skater to perform to music. He must have hired live musicians to stand by the side of the pond and play. Since he was a former ballet teacher, I would imagine he used music from that genre, but I don't really know. (He couldn't have used Swan Lake, though. He died the year it was composed.)
 

janetfan

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I wish we had footage from the days of Jackson Haines, who was the first skater to perform to music. He must have hired live musicians to stand by the side of the pond and play. Since he was a former ballet teacher, I would imagine he used music from that genre, but I don't really know. (He couldn't have used Swan Lake, though. He died the year it was composed.)

There is a strong musical heritage in America going back to the Civil War era when every regiment had their own band. Also American popular songs by composers like Stephen Foster were popular in the USA as well as Europe.

In the late 19th century there were many local and professional touring brass bands in the USA, partially a carry over from our British heritage but also because of the Civil War miltary band tradition.
My grandfather was a bandleader for 20 years after previously playing in touring bands when he was younger.

There are many brass band and symphonic band "warhorses", many of them transcriptions of European classics.
Of course the most famous bandleader was the "March King" JP Sousa. One of the most famous bands was the Goldman band from NYC which is still in existence. The star performer of these bands was the lead cornet player. And Euphonium soloists were also common.

There were municipal or Town bands, in rural areas there were county bands and of course some famous Circus bands. In cities there were police bands, fire department bands, as well as neighborhood bands. There were many miltary bands and also youth bands. There were rubber bands and band aids ;) A classic from the American music theater is Meridith Wilson's "The Music Man" which is about a small town in Iowa starting a youth band.

I suspect if Haines used Live music it would have been played by some type of brassband. Strings are murderous to play outside in cold or damp weather and woodwinds dont project well enough unless the performance is in a dell like setting.
 
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Joined
Jul 11, 2003
Good points Joe - but first off, there is music - and there has been music for a long time in figure skating. Whether some of us like it or not, we hear the terms "musical, artistic, lyrical, dramatic and athletic" used to describe skaters all of the time.
Of course music has been around skating since Jackson Haines first joined music and skating in professional shows. It was not judged - just praised like barrel jumping.

I understand you are expressing a purist pov - but couldn't one also say no more music for ballet or modern dance too? And just forget the story and choreography and only judge Dancers on how they perform various elements?
I do say no more music but not for professional dances. Just for athletic competitions. Like a horse and carriage, music and dance go hand and hand long before Haines came up with the idea using it for skating. But Athletics and music? Music was used in competitive skating as a gimmick since it proved very profitable for professional skating. It did attract some kids to dress up and have fun. It was and still is a type of Pagaent-like competition more than a serious sport. Much ado about makeup, costumes, posing and yes, a little day music. All the elements in a good little girl's pagaent, I would say. Artistry - never. Talent - Maybe.

Maybe you have a good idea - part of skating could go back to something along the lines of school figures, expanded to include jumps and other elements. The problem I see there is getting people into the arenas to watch it - let alone any type of TV coverage.
Please, I never mentioned school figures. You'll have other posters quoting that I want to go back to school figures. I was thinking of Diving. Each contestant has a choice of 5 different Dives which all have base values. Familiar? That could be expanded to Jumps, Spins, and Footwork., and no music for the SP. Strictly Technical with GoEs. I would then consider a musical routine of Free Skating as second segment for inclusion for the Final Result. That's Free skating- not with all those restrictions of CoP. If the Sport loses its 'little girl' look, I think attendance would increase. There are no plans for TV coverage for figure skating after the 2010 Olys. Nothing to do with lack of music. BTW, do you believe that Sports main object is to make money? and not find which team is the greater that year?

But aside from all of that - is it fair from almost any pov to compare Michelle or Yagudin or any skater to Leonardo Da Vinci? You seem prejudiced against the art of mathematics and physics by not using Sir Isaac Newton. He was brilliant and had about as much in common to figure skating as Da Vinci, Michelangelo or Bellini.
c'mon. Do you really think I should list all the historical great artists both creative as well as performing. If you read those I listed, you will find a ver diverse group. Furthermore, discussing Newton as a great artist is a bit of a stretch. He was for me. probably the greatest of all scientists.


I also don't see why you think it is wrong to think of a skater's nationality (my last post was broader and thought in continental regions). There are schools of skating that have more or less existed although today they are less defined.
I was just watching Kat from 1984 and she was so totally different than Roz Sumners - there is no doubt that one represented a Euro style of skating and the other a North American style. Maybe that is less apparent today with coaches and skaters living and training all over the world.
But I don't see what is wrong with asking about the "musicality" of European Lady skaters since none of them were mentioned (except negatively) in a topic
about "skating and musicality."
I certainly had equal time for all those nationalities I listed as true great artists.
With the advent of Air Tranportation and TV, the exchange in all the Arts and Sports have now blended and it's one of the reasons, I do not have a favorite American skater.

Did I misunderstand the meaning of your post?
Only you can answer that.
 
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ImaginaryPogue

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Jun 3, 2009
re: Athletic skaters...

I don't mean one-dimensional, exactly. I may be talking out of my a** here, but here goes.

Obviously, any figure skater that achieves a degree of international success is practically, by definition, a good athlete.

For me, if I described a skater as athletic that would mean the athletic component was the driving force for them. The reason I wouldn't include someone like Brian Joubert is because his showmanship doesn't derive predominantly from his athleticism, but from things like his music choices (appealing techno/Euro-house dance beats) and "bigger" choreography alongside athleticism.

Joesitz said:
However, I am convinced the Sport should dump the music and judge the elements only. When you think of a Worlds Championship and watch 30 skaters and only one or two have musicality (and don't medal, by the way) what is the point of using music?

I don't think it's that bad, Joesitz. I mean, looking at the guys this year, I'd say Lysacek, Chan, Verner, Kozuka, D. Ten, and Contesti all used the music in their programs to create an interesting, cohesive unit. I also think skaters like Takahashi, Oda,

Joesitz said:
This leads right into Art. Should these skaters be ranked with DaVinci? Beethoven? Shakespeare? Cervantes? Ulanova? Callas? Kurosawa? Streep? to name just a few?

Agreed, and I think that's partially why I don't consider figure skating an art. Artistic? Absolutely. But can one really compare a great figure skating program to a great book? Or movie? Etc. And more than that, given that figure skating offers reinterpretations of existing works (re: music), is it really fair to do so?

I think the rules/restrictions on free skating makes it more of a sport, truth be told. Otherwise, it might as well be Calvinball.
 
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janetfan

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May 15, 2009
re: Athletic skaters...

For me, if I described a skater as athletic that would mean the athletic component was the driving force for them. The reason I wouldn't include someone like Brian Joubert is because his showmanship doesn't derive predominantly from his athleticism, but from things like his music choices (appealing techno/Euro-house dance beats) and "bigger" choreography alongside athleticism. .

OK - thanks for your reply and I think I get your point better now.
I mentioned Elvis last night - and said I was surprised by his showmanship when I saw him Live. But I saw him at a COI show - so of course his skating was different than at a competitive event.

As to the rest of the question I will get back tomorrow on the part which originated from Joe. I think it is interesting - but should be a different or new topic since it is about a major overhaul of skating competitions.
 

janetfan

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May 15, 2009
I do say no more music but not for professional dances. Just for athletic competitions. But Athletics and music? Music was used in competitive skating as a gimmick since it proved very profitable for professional skating. It did attract some kids to dress up and have fun. It was and still is a type of Pagaent-like competition more than a serious sport. Much ado about makeup, costumes, posing and yes, a little day music. All the elements in a good little girl's pagaent, I would say. Artistry - never. Talent - Maybe.

Please, I never mentioned school figures. You'll have other posters quoting that I want to go back to school figures. I was thinking of Diving. Each contestant has a choice of 5 different Dives which all have base values. Familiar? That could be expanded to Jumps, Spins, and Footwork., and no music for the SP. Strictly Technical with GoEs. I would then consider a musical routine of Free Skating as second segment for inclusion for the Final Result. That's Free skating- not with all those restrictions of CoP. If the Sport loses its 'little girl' look, I think attendance would increase. There are no plans for TV coverage for figure skating after the 2010 Olys. Nothing to do with lack of music. BTW, do you believe that Sports main object is to make money? and not find which team is the greater that year?

I certainly had equal time for all those nationalities I listed as true great artists.
With the advent of Air Tranportation and TV, the exchange in all the Arts and Sports have now blended and it's one of the reasons, I do not have a favorite American skater.

Good post Joe. BTW, i have referred to the GP series as having exactly what you are saying here - a "beauty pageant" feeling. When I say it I mean that compared to Natls or Worlds, GP's don't feel nearly as competitive. Many skaters have said this - how they look forward to meeting up with other skater friends to go shopping and spending time together socializing. I dont think that is the mood at the more important competitions.

Should music also be eliminated from the floor exercise at gymnastic meets? And what about the sport of rhythmic gymnastics? For that matter, what about competitive ballroom dancing events?They are judged - and yet they have music. Personally, I think the world needs more music - and not less. :yes:

I think your idea about having the SP being done without music and basing it soley on the performance of elements is interesting. But why wouldn't that bring back a return to school figures? Maybe worth less than before but the sport is called "figure skating" and not "jump skating" or step sequence skating."
Many think we might see better, cleaner skating with a return to figures. I think we should have a return to figures and this time they should be done to music! ;)

Professional sports are about money - winning typically helps a franchise earn more money so whether it is the New York Mets, or Tiger Woods - the more they win the more potential they have for earning more from commercials and endorsements.
Professional ballet companies are about what? Art - or making money?
Your question could be argued for hours without a resolution.
Amateur sports, like a ballet school for beginning dancers are in a similar situation. They need money to survive. Their competitions are supposed to be about finding out who is the best. But usually the best amateurs are the ones' who had the most money for the best training, coaching and support.

You might start a new topic about this since it is interesting but only vaguely related to "musical skaters." If earlier you listed your examples of musical skaters I missed it. I recall only one - Brezina. Is he, in your opinion the only musical skater in the world? What about skaters from the past?
There is a matter of technique and how it effects a skater's confidence. That in turn can help raise or lower a skater's presention.

I see skating as a blend of sport and art. I love sports and I love art. Maybe that is why I love skating so much. Since Janet thrilled audiences three decades ago skating has evolved into a performance art blending skating elements with music interpretation. You may not like it but it is hard to deny.

Why is the thread about new music so active here? It puzzles me that some of the most active posters there who seem to lose sleep over a skaters new music selections have not made a comment on this topic. Do they really have any idea of how new music will effect their favorite skater's chances for this season.
Of course not. Because skating is still a sport first. The best music and choreo with a great costume mean nothing if you don't skate well.
 
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Jul 11, 2003
Well, we have to disagree, JFan. I see the blend of good line with the technical aspects of skating. Music with so many faux port au bras considered as musical make me laugh.

I believe music has essential parts to it: Tempo, Beat, Rhythm, etc., all walled up in the Timing of the music: Adagio, Brio, Focosio, Andante, Fortisimo, etc. of thousands more.

Only a child studying a musical instrument would understand this. That rare talented skated may understand when to speed it up and when to slow it down. It takes time for the skater who is not so talented but can eventually acquire this musicality. It is one of the reasons I am more interested in seeing older young ladies skate than little girls mimicking the music from what they see on TV.

But the CoP checks just on the interpretation of the music, so we have many skaters who need a story line from a movie, ballet or opera to copy. Few, if any can put an interpretation to a piece of music as original. Well, maybe Kwan can.
 

janetfan

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May 15, 2009
Well, we have to disagree, JFan. I see the blend of good line with the technical aspects of skating. Music with so many faux port au bras considered as musical make me laugh.

I believe music has essential parts to it: Tempo, Beat, Rhythm, etc., all walled up in the Timing of the music: Adagio, Brio, Focosio, Andante, Fortisimo, etc. of thousands more.

Only a child studying a musical instrument would understand this. That rare talented skated may understand when to speed it up and when to slow it down. It takes time for the skater who is not so talented but can eventually acquire this musicality. It is one of the reasons I am more interested in seeing older young ladies skate than little girls mimicking the music from what they see on TV.

But the CoP checks just on the interpretation of the music, so we have many skaters who need a story line from a movie, ballet or opera to copy. Few, if any can put an interpretation to a piece of music as original. Well, maybe Kwan can.

Thanks for your post Joe. We are not as far apart as you may believe on this topic. I just think that you are much more of a purist than I am.

At the start of this topic I said "Caroline, as a musician may have an advantage on musical interpretation over some other skaters. I think that is not necessarily true as Alicja pointed out. I do think it is obvious that Caroline has had much more serious Dance training than many other skaters. I think that is the part of her skating that sometimes strikes me as being musical. Yet, these flashes I see from Caroline tend to be limited by her technique. She still doesn't skate into a 2A with any speed and her jumps in general keep her looking like a junior skater at times.

Thanks for listing a skater you considered to have some good musicality.
I think once Michelle realized around age 15 that her technique was solid and dependable she concentrated more on feeling and interpreting music more than most other skaters.
 
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Jul 11, 2003
Thanks for listing a skater you considered to have some good musicality.
I think once Michelle realized around age 15 that her technique was solid and dependable she concentrated more on feeling and interpreting music more than most other skaters.
It's just so difficult under the CoP to be a free skater with personality, but the CoP is perfect for the Technical. That is why I believe the two-part contest should be judged in two separate parts - one without music; and one with. That puts the skater with the showmanship on par with quad skater.
 

antmanb

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Feb 5, 2004
It's just so difficult under the CoP to be a free skater with personality, but the CoP is perfect for the Technical. That is why I believe the two-part contest should be judged in two separate parts - one without music; and one with. That puts the skater with the showmanship on par with quad skater.

The...i don't know what to call it, idealist (perhaps i'm just being naive) in me, would like to think that once the 6.0 generation and anyone that came up through the ranks in it has gone and we have COP skaters through and through competing at the senior level we will see skaters who have mastered the IMO ludicrous requirements for steps/spins etc and who won't have problems checking the lsit of requirements for COP high levels/transitions etc and will be able to present beautiful more musical programmes.

As it happens i'm in agreement with those who feel the look back to 6.0 is with rose tinted spectacles and that the kind of beautiful progammes that people claim we saw under 6.0 were as rare as the ones we get now.

Ant
 
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