What Defines a Musical Skater?

We hear the phrase," he or she is such a musical skater." And we hear this phrase about Pairs teams too. What about Ice Dancers? Are they automatically consisdered musical because they are "dancing over the ice?
Also, the term, "artistic skater" comes up all the time. Are they the same?

For an example I might think of Evan and Johnny.
One is considered artistic and musical and the other not so much.

I believe you can be artistic without necessarily being so musical and vice versa.
Posing, and making dramatic faces is apparently considered very artistic here.
I won't agree or disagree with that thought but will say "posing and being dramatic" is not the same thing as being "musical."

Evan does not skate like Johnny at all, but he can skate a pretty good transition and do some pretty impressive footwork known to bring a crowd to it's feet. Is that musical or just showmanship? And is it artistic?

Johnny can do some dramatic posing and show us some nice positions - and then leave out any attempt to follow the music until he is ready to pick up speed for another element. That may be "dramatic" and is considered artisitc - but is it also musical?

This is a difficult question because I am starting without any basic guideline. This topic is not the same as judging a lutz from a flutz which can be much less subjective.

For me, truly musical skating began with Janet Lynn. Was she also artistic? I think so, but I would think there were other artisitic skaters before Janet. Button was an artist on the ice. Peggy was very artistic but imo not as musical as Janet.

The culmination of what Janet started I see in Michelle Kwan. I see some great artistic skating from other ladies but Michelle seemed to feel music and move to it more expressively than most others. To me, Irina was a great artist on the ice. But I don't think she was as musical as Michelle.

Sorry for rambling on - just wanted to see if I could start a discussion about this topic. You may agree or disagree with my comments because most were subjective.
But I am very sure that artistic skating is not necessarily the same thing as musical skating.

Artistic and musical is not the same thing, not at all. Just to make my perception clear I'll use Rachael and Caroline. To me, Rachael is very musical, yet she's not really artistic. OTOH, Caroline is artistic but I don't see much musicality with her. Rachael seems to understand the music but hasn't quite found a way to present herself. While Caroline presents but not necessarily the music she's skating to. I don't know if this makes sense. I hope so.

To me, Kurt Browning is the most musical skater. He could/can skate to absolutely anything - including no music at all (Nyah)!

Alicja said:

Artistic and musical is not the same thing, not at all. Just to make my perception clear I'll use Rachael and Caroline. To me, Rachael is very musical, yet she's not really artistic. OTOH, Caroline is artistic but I don't see much musicality with her. Rachael seems to understand the music but hasn't quite found a way to present herself. While Caroline presents but not necessarily the music she's skating to. I don't know if this makes sense. I hope so.

Click to expand...

That is a very interesting reply and I almost used them for an example.
What I wonder about is the fact that Caroline is supposedly a very good violin player. Caroline is a musician and AFAIK Rachael is not.

We get into a question of technique here I think. Watching some of Caroline's Gala skates I would say she is the most musical skater of all the USA ladies. Watching Rachael skate competitively I see a young lady more assured of her technique. Her artistry and ability to express it looks more self assured to me than either Caroline or Mirai at this point.

To me Rachael is a more artistic (to me that means she can express what she is trying to do very well) and Caroline is more musical but not always in competitive events. It shows up in her show skating.
As a musician myself, I belive Caroline has a tremendous advantage over most skaters interpreting music but I see a need for stronger technique to realize her potential.

That said, I think Rachael is musical skater but I think her technique and artistry are better at this point.
This is very subjective and just my opinion and you may very well be right and I might be wrong.
I am known to be a big Caroline fan.

i love to skate said:

To me, Kurt Browning is the most musical skater. He could/can skate to absolutely anything - including no music at all (Nyah)!

Click to expand...

No doubt about how great Kurt was. And I particularly appreciate how versatile he was - many of the so called "musical skaters" would fall flat on their face trying to interpret Jazz and blues the way Kurt could.
IMO he would be at the top of any list of guys who are/were musical skaters.
I think a key was that Kurt had very good skating skills - he had the ability and confidence to tackle anything - and he did!! :yes:

For once we agree, eh?

janetfan said:

That is a very interesting reply and I almost used them for an example.
What I wonder about is the fact that Caroline is supposedly a very good violin player. Caroline is a musician and AFAIK Rachael is not.

We get into a question of technique here I think. Watching some of Caroline's Gala skates I would say she is the most musical skater of all the USA ladies. Watching Rachael skate competitively I see a young lady more assured of her technique. Her artistry and ability to express it looks more self assured to me than either Caroline or Mirai at this point.

To me Rachael is a more artistic (to me that means she can express what she is trying to do very well) and Caroline is more musical but not always in competitive events. It shows up in her show skating.
As a musician myself, I belive Caroline has a tremendous advantage over most skaters interpreting music but I see a need for stronger technique to realize her potential.

That said, I think Rachael is musical but not more than most skaters.

Click to expand...

Well, first of all you can play an instrument without being musical. You can have excellent technique on piano, violin but still not be very musical. It might make it harder but it's certainly not impossible to get to a certain skill level.

Maybe we should have skaters take Wing's Standardized Test of Musical Intelligence Though I don't really believe in those tests.

Someone once told me that anyone who is emotionally impressed or impresses others with music, is musical. That would classify many people as musical, I guess. In the end it's all about how we create and how we perceive.
I can express my musicality very well playing the piano, yet I'm not sure I can do the same thing with dancing or singing.

I would say musicality is the interpretation of a piece according to the intentions of the composer and therefore requires emotional and intellectual understanding.

Alicja said:

Well, first of all you can play an instrument without being musical. You can have excellent technique on piano, violin but still not be very musical. It might make it harder but it's certainly not impossible to get to a certain skill level.

Maybe we should have skaters take Wing's Standardized Test of Musical Intelligence Though I don't really believe in those tests.

Someone once told me that anyone who is emotionally impressed or impresses others with music, is musical. That would classify many people as musical, I guess. In the end it's all about how we create and how we perceive.
I can express my musicality very well playing the piano, yet I'm not sure I can do the same thing with dancing or singing.

I would say musicality is the interpretation of a piece according to the intentions of the composer and therefore requires emotional and intellectual understanding.

Click to expand...

Thanks for an excellent post. I agree totally and BTW, i was trying to re-write my first reply to you because this is not an easy topic. Part of how we feel about Rachael and Caroline is subjective.

But I do agree with this post. I play several instruments and never felt I was a very musical piano player. On the other hand, I sometimes felt like the "Kurt Browning" of flute players.

janetfan said:

No doubt about how great Kurt was. And I particularly appreciate how versatile he was - many of the so called "musical skaters" would fall flat on their face trying to interpret Jazz and blues the way Kurt could.
IMO he would be at the top of any list of guys who are/were musical skaters.
I think a key was that Kurt had very good skating skills - he had the ability and confidence to tackle anything - and he did!! :yes:

Click to expand...

Exactly! To determine how musical a skater is depends on their versaltility. Kurt tackled so many genres of music!

janetfan said:

For once we agree, eh?

Click to expand...

Had to happen sometime! :thumbsup:

Very nice topic jntfan. Gives a lot to think about
The example of Johnny and Evan confuses me a little.I m trying to think how I can express my different idea of musicality and artistry outside fs, like in dance. It is clear in my mind but I cant think of an example, moreover one to say it in english . All the replies are very interesting.

I would say musicality is the interpretation of a piece according to the intentions of the composer and therefore requires emotional and intellectual understanding.

Click to expand...

this is something that projects what I have in my foggy mind , of course I could never express it so well as you did. But this is musicallity.

I would say that Brian Boitano is an example of a skater who is very artistic, and innovative in his artistry, but is "musically challenged" (example: Wild Elephants.)

i love to skate said:

Exactly! To determine how musical a skater is depends on their versaltility. Kurt tackled so many genres of music!

Had to happen sometime! :thumbsup:

Click to expand...

I also liked the Patrick ad

Kurt was impressive not just for his versatility, but for the fact he could do it all so well.
I always liked Victor P. - but used to run screaming from the room when he showed us his R'n R routines. Not so bad, just so terribly corny and lacking any real interpretive skill or creativity. Nothing even close to what Kurt showed us.

Mathman said:

I would say that Brian Boitano is an example of a skater who is very artistic, and innovative in his artistry, but is "musically challenged" (example: Wild Elephants.)

Click to expand...

I agree and thought Brian was a fantastic "bravura" type of skater. And artistic and also very expressive.
But I never saw or felt great musicality from his skating.
I feel the same way about Johnny. He is different than Boitano, but is very expressive and dramatic. He just at times seems to forget about the music. Perhaps it is why he favors New Age so much. There is a lack of melodic and rhthmic motion in New Age and that seems to suit his style of skating.

Michael Weiss was another one - sort of like a "poor man's Boitano." Very bravura and even expressive at times - but never very musical imo,

Michelle was artistic, but no always musical.
Sasha was very musical and also artistic.
Plushy is artistic, but not really musical.
Irina is neither.
Caroline can very artistic, but not really musical.
Kimmie can't really do either (sorry girl), but her artistry is better than her musicality.

I think musicality can be taught to some degree with a good choreographer. Artistry is more you have it more you don't.

Doesnt musicality concern only your moves through the music and artistry what you can project of yourself while skating to this music piece?
And question time:
whats the difference of the skater who skates with the music and the skater who skates to the music?
I ve seen this phrase a lot here when referring to skater styles, but I dont understand the difference of these two statements in english.
And at last I can ask, what is bravura skater?

Thanx for examples Tiny, they give me some light now!

seniorita said:

Very nice topic jntfan. Gives a lot to think about
The example of Johnny and Evan confuses me a little.I m trying to think how I can express my different idea of musicality and artistry outside fs, like in dance. It is clear in my mind but I cant think of an example, moreover one to say it in english . All the replies are very interesting.
this is something that projects what I have in my foggy mind , of course I could never express it so well as you did. But this is musicallity.

Click to expand...

Glad you like the topic. I would suggest that you consider this:

A skater like Michelle at times did not seem so "busy" yet she seemd to be floating so perfectly to the music." It was part of her appeal. It was so musical.

Irina might have been doing more - moving her arms up and down, but was it to the music or was she just doing the choreo she had been taught? Did Irina appear to skate and express her total body motions to the FLOW or MOTION or RHYTHM of the music?

I wonder about Mao and Yuna. Despite Cop I think Yuna is starting to show us a beautiful flow to the music. I am not saying Mao can't do it too - but last year Mao appeared to be "skating to numbers" and looked like Tat's zombie half the year.
But Mao has shown me moments of great musicality - just watch her Tango Gala from last year. It is great and it is musical. Mao, like Caroline seems to have a harder time expressing herself in competitive programs .
Tat must fix that or Yuna will crush Mao in Vancouver. A 3A or two will not be enough to beat Yuna's superior presentation. Just my opinion.

I just reflected about my first post, the one about Rachael and Caroline. I figured that what I described there didn't necessarily have anything to do with musicality. It's really hard to judge or even voice an opinion about a skater's musicality without taking a closer look at the scores of the music they used, maybe do some kind of analysis, and the biographical background of the composer. As this has a lot to do with the Intellectual part of musicality. What we perceived when watching a programs to music were are not familiar with(in terms of musical analysis), is emotional musicality. Especially this part is highly influenced by our own perception which is was makes it so subjective. So, what we're describing is often only superficial or partial.

just my opinion, of course

Tinymavy15 said:

Michelle was artistic, but no always musical.
Sasha was very musical and also artistic.
Plushy is artistic, but not really musical.
Irina is neither.
Caroline can very artistic, but not really musical.
Kimmie can't really do either (sorry girl), but her artistry is better than her musicality.

I think musicality can be taught to some degree with a good choreographer. Artistry is more you have it more you don't.

Click to expand...

Good thougts - and Sasha is worth mentioning because she was both musical and artistic. But Sasha also could spend some time posing and charming a crowd. Watch some of her programs and at times it is like a Johnny or Yags performance to me. Very good, very dramatic but I can see her following the choreo so closely at times it loses a bit of a natural feeling to me. And it is full of dramtic posing.
This is difficult - at times I see Plushy and Joubert doing this macho bit - and whether you like it or not - it works, the audiences love it and the judges reward it. It is part charisma, part flaunting your looks but not necessarily musical. It is dramatic. I have no problem saying Sasha can be more dramatic than Michelle. I am not sure if she is more musical though. Again, this is subjective. Please understand it is just my opinion and I dont claim to be right.

Jeffry Buttle was musical, right???I mean this is my idea of musicallity.
Stephan was artistic,and I m debating if he was that musical as Buttle. I think not.

I mean i could watch buttle skating to anything of a music without choreography, while stephan gives me performances of a character with music or not, do i make sense?

I must be the last one on earth that cant see the so much musicality of Yuna. I see drama and theatrical superiority.

Does a musical skater must know to be musical in all kind of music pieces???

seniorita said:

Does a musical skater must know to be musical in all kind of music pieces???

Click to expand...

Theoretically, yes, emotionally, no!

Alicja said:

I just reflected about my first post, the one about Rachael and Caroline. I figured that what I described there didn't necessarily have anything to do with musicality. It's really hard to judge or even voice an opinion about a skater's musicality without taking a closer look at the scores of the music they used, maybe do some kind of analysis, and the biographical background of the composer. As this has a lot to do with the Intellectual part of musicality. What we perceived when watching a programs to music were are not familiar with(in terms of musical analysis), is emotional musicality. Especially this part is highly influenced by our own perception which is was makes it so subjective. So, what we're describing is often only superficial or partial.

just my opinion, of course

Click to expand...

OK, your comments for me are great!
I just wonder though - when you are playing the piano perhaps your objective is to interpret the composer's intent as closely as possible. That is one type of musicality. When Charlie Parker was playing a great jazz chorus on "Indiana" I think he was showing a musical genius the world had never seen at that time. He wasn't really expressing the composer's original intent. He was expressing his own feelings and musicality. Is that any less musical than a classical performer trying to play Mozart the way Mozart had intended?
It might be interesting to hear from some dancers or skaters or gymnasts and their feelings about musicality, how it was taught them from an interpretive point.
Skating is so unique - unlike dancing it can provide at time's an almost magical gliding feeling along with other elements provided by skates meeting ice.

Someone earlier said "Irina was never artistic." I think I disagree - or probably I disagree with that poster's idea of artistry. Irina, when she was on was something to behold. She had such beautiful jumps (is that not artistry??) and such a command of the ice........again just my opinion.