What Defines a Musical Skater?

Joesitz said:

It's just so difficult under the CoP to be a free skater with personality, but the CoP is perfect for the Technical. That is why I believe the two-part contest should be judged in two separate parts - one without music; and one with. That puts the skater with the showmanship on par with quad skater.

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I thought I was the only one who thinks CoP has drastically changed the way a skater presents their LP. Whenever I bring this up there is either silence or a set of rules posted showing how CoP is so superior.

On the Caroline thread you said how tough a younger and healthy Irina would have been to beat under CoP. I agree with that and think she would have racked up monster scores. On the other hand, imagine how Chen-Lu's beautiful, expressive skating would have been so different under CoP? She would have had to change so much of it trying to rack up "points."

I feel the same way about how differently Michelle's classic programs would have been skated. In fact, they might not even be considered classics had they been skated under CoP.
BTW, are there any classic programs skated under CoP that compare to what Michelle was doing 10 or 12 years ago? Since many think Michelle has been surpassed by today's skaters - which of the Mao, Yuna, Miki or Carolina LP programs are so much better than Michelle' LP's from the late 90"s?

Some say they watch clips of skating from the past and claim the skating wasn't as good.
Duh.....

Of course the skaters are better today than they were 20 or 30 years ago. Every sport evolves, and athletes today are better trained, not just in skating but with cross training, more attention to nutrition, etc.

I think what some of us miss today is the chance for the very best skaters to show us something different and unique in their free skates. Some claim Yuna has figured it out - but is she the only one capable of showing an artistic LP under CoP?

janetfan said:

I feel the same way about how differently Michelle's classic programs would have been skated. In fact, they might not even be considered classics had they been skated under CoP.
BTW, are there any classic programs skated under CoP that compare to what Michelle was doing 10 or 12 years ago? Since many think Michelle has been surpassed by today's skaters - which of the Mao, Yuna, Miki or Carolina LP programs are so much better than Michelle' LP's from the late 90"s?

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Personally i would say no, but what do I know i'm a Kwaniac! I think it very much depends on what you mean by "compare with". As you say technically with one less jumping pass the girls you list are doing more technically (well i'd maybe scratch carolina from that list) in terms of jumps. The COP requires it's hoop jumping level features for footwork and spins so while technically more difficult I don't think any of their step sequences actually match, relate to or have anything whatsoever to do with the music, unlike Kwan's step sequences - particularlly the later ones like TFB which in it's different itterations all put chills down my spine.

Same again with the sprials - nowadays i'm bored &$£&less watching the girls hanging on for dear life for the 6 second moment checking off the levels. Kwans sprials were always perfectly timed to appropriate parts of the music and more importantly were over and done with as and when themusic called for it - she didn't have to count to 3 or 6 or hold her blade above her head to hit the requirements.

But the thing is - Kwan was a very special skater. Special skaters like that are a very rare find and it may be another 100 years before another skater quite like her comes round again.

Ant

antmanb said:

Same again with the sprials - nowadays i'm bored &$£&less watching the girls hanging on for dear life for the 6 second moment checking off the levels. Kwans sprials were always perfectly timed to appropriate parts of the music and more importantly were over and done with as and when themusic called for it - she didn't have to count to 3 or 6 or hold her blade above her head to hit the requirements.

But the thing is - Kwan was a very special skater. Special skaters like that are a very rare find and it may be another 100 years before another skater quite like her comes round again. Ant

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Funny you should mention spirals - because they are one of the least attractive elements I see under CoP. My gosh, Michelle used to bring people out of their seats with her spirals. But I dont think we would have seen them under CoP. They would have been reserved for Galas.

antmanb said:

The...i don't know what to call it, idealist (perhaps i'm just being naive) in me, would like to think that once the 6.0 generation and anyone that came up through the ranks in it has gone and we have COP skaters through and through competing at the senior level we will see skaters who have mastered the IMO ludicrous requirements for steps/spins etc and who won't have problems checking the lsit of requirements for COP high levels/transitions etc and will be able to present beautiful more musical programmes.

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I absolutely agree with you. I think people tend to forget that COP has only been implemented at Worlds for 5 years. 5 years! Look how far the skaters how come in those five years. Many of the skaters competing today have only been subjected to COP and to me they have absolutely stunning programs. I think people only remember the few "good" aspects of 6.0 and forget all the problems that were associated with it.

i love to skate said:

I absolutely agree with you. I think people tend to forget that COP has only been implemented at Worlds for 5 years. 5 years! Look how far the skaters how come in those five years. Many of the skaters competing today have only been subjected to COP and to me they have absolutely stunning programs. I think people only remember the few "good" aspects of 6.0 and forget all the problems that were associated with it.

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I am thinking about the beautiful Gala clip of Joannie you posted the other day. I had NO IDEA she could skate that way. It was emotional and expressive and even had a lovely spiral. Too bad what I liked most about Joannie's Gala skate seems to be missing from her LP's. Maybe this season she will show us more.

I agree that CoP is still new and maybe needs some time and a little more tweaking. But I think Joe is right that there seems to be little difference between what is supposed to be a "technical" SP and a "free" LP. The only difference I see is the duration of the two programs.

janetfan said:

I agree that CoP is still new and maybe needs some time and a little more tweaking. But I think Joe is right that there seems to be little difference between what is supposed to be a "technical" SP and a "free" LP. The only difference I see is the duration of the two programs.

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How is it any different than it used to be though? In 6.0 the Women would do six or seven triples, about 4 spins, a footwork sequence, and a spiral. Men would do eight triples (two triple axels), a quad if they had it, around four spins, and some footwork. Skaters are still free to choose their music and pick their choreography. I don't see how it is a big difference now as compared to 6.0.

i love to skate said:

How is it any different than it used to be though? In 6.0 the Women would do six or seven triples, about 4 spins, a footwork sequence, and a spiral. Men would do eight triples (two triple axels), a quad if they had it, around four spins, and some footwork. Skaters are still free to choose their music and pick their choreography. I don't see how it is a big difference now as compared to 6.0.

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Then you might not see the difference in what Michelle was doing 12 years ago and what skaters who are supposed to be technically superior to her were doing at '09 Worlds.

I think of Chen-Lu from the '94 and '98 Olympics. I still remember those programs because they were so beautiful and unique.

Mao's programs last season imo were close to disatrous for a skater of her immense talent. Carolina was a disaster. Miki and Joannie were better but still lacking expression. I mean the kind of expression that people will talk about 10-15years later. The way we still talk about Michelle's classic programs.

Yuna created quite a buzz and her SP was a masterful blend of technique and artistry. None of the other Ladies showed us anything memorable. I can barely remember what Yuna's LP looked like. I think it was very similar to Miss Saigon - just the music was different.

Maybe it is just the off season blues coming out of me this morning

janetfan said:

Mao's programs last season imo were close to disatrous for a skater of her immense talent. Carolina was a disaster. Miki and Joannie were better but still lacking expression. I mean the kind of expression that people will talk about 10-15years later. The way we still talk about Michelle's classic programs.

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Michelle was a once in a lifetime talent though. Besides her, who else had amazing expression during her era? Tara Lipinksi? Sarah Hughes? Irina Slutskya? Nope, nope, nope. Some people may think Sasha but I really didn't see anything special in her expression wise.

For me, the pros far out-way the cons in COP. I respect that other people do not agree. However, I think it is important to move forward and try and see the positives. Can you imagine how good the skaters will be by the next Olympic cycle if they have come this far in only five years? Isn't that exciting to think about?

One thing you all must take note of is the fact that the CoP has outlined the bullets in the PC scores to be shown by the skater taking away any modicum of free expression while skating. Just another of my pet peeves to rid the scoring as a continuation of the Tech.

Hi..

After reading all these threads, I don't quite understand why so many people here praise Michelle K's skating so much. I watched her videos on and on...Well. she is good, of course.. Becoming a world champion several times (how many?) is a great achievement. I think very highly of her consistency, her competitiveness.. never giving up, but I couldn't find any special quality beyond other top skaters: she did not have as a beautiful line or is as flexible as Sasha, Alissa or Mao; her skating is not as speedy, energetic, or even exciting as Yuna or Carolina. Well, it seems that she is musical...she feels music.. so she acts very well with music (her facial expression, her body gesture). But I would say that other ladies also have such level of musicality: Yuna, Alissa, Sasha, even Ashley.

It seems to me that MK became a queen in a santuary to many people (many Americans) here, just as Yuna to Koreans and Mao to Japanese. Nobody seems to be allowed to point out any weaknesses for their queens. But this is just my opinion. Am I allowed to speak out my free opinion here?

I am not a native speaker of English and I may not have a proper choice of vocabulary. I hope you understand my writing.

Welcome to the forum, Zartian. Thanks for joining us.

All opinions are welcome here.

zartian said:

Hi..

After reading all these threads, I don't quite understand why so many people here praise Michelle K's skating so much. I watched her videos on and on...Well. she is good, of course.. Becoming a world champion several times (how many?) is a great achievement. I think very highly of her consistency, her competitiveness.. never giving up, but I couldn't find any special quality beyond other top skaters: she did not have as a beautiful line or is as flexible as Sasha, Alissa or Mao; her skating is not as speedy, energetic, or even exciting as Yuna or Carolina. Well, it seems that she is musical...she feels music.. so she acts very well with music (her facial expression, her body gesture). But I would say that other ladies also have such level of musicality: Yuna, Alissa, Sasha, even Ashley.

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I can understand your feeling of over-the-top-praise of MK (it does become tiresome) but I see it as without anything to do with her grace and poise over the ice. You also tend to compare this injured skater in her later years with the dynamos of today. To say a skater who can drag, and I say drag, her leg over her head while spinning as some sort of supreme beauty is in the mind of the viewer. Not everyone enjoys over-the-top acrobatics and contortion-like body moves in figure skating. When the music demands energy and speed, MK could meet that requrement for the musicality and not for the points. You apparently prefer overt virtuosity over lyrical styles.

So we differ in what makes a musical skater. No problem.

in skating of today, I would say Caroline is a contemporary of MK and she doesn't need all that flexibility but could use more power stroking. We'll see if this and more pronounced musicality happens this season.

Mao, I see as a contemporary of Irina Slutskaya: Strong, athletic but lacks any musical style

Joesitz said:

I can understand your feeling of over-the-top-praise of MK (it does become tiresome) but I see it as without anything to do with her grace and poise over the ice. You also tend to compare this injured skater in her later years with the dynamos of today. To say a skater who can drag, and I say drag, her leg over her head while spinning as some sort of supreme beauty is in the mind of the viewer. Not everyone enjoys over-the-top acrobatics and contortion-like body moves in figure skating. When the music demands energy and speed, MK could meet that requrement for the musicality and not for the points. You apparently prefer overt virtuosity over lyrical styles.

So we differ in what makes a musical skater. No problem.

in skating of today, I would say Caroline is a contemporary of MK and she doesn't need all that flexibility but could use more power stroking. We'll see if this and more pronounced musicality happens this season.

Mao, I see as a contemporary of Irina Slutskaya: Strong, athletic but lacks any musical style

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Thank you for your reply, Joe.

I agree with the most of what you said, but I disagree with you about Caroline. She seems to have become immensely popular now (to consider the number of pages of the threads about her). And many people tend to identify her extraordinary flexibility as her being artistic. To judge from the past seasons, however, she is not yet artistic at all. She doesn't express herself yet with music. The flexibility without being musical or artistic looks more acrobatic to me (like... what I felt ... when I saw Chinese circus). That may be because she is still young and has not fully developed her artistry yet, so we will see what she will become this season (and I hope that she will be totally transformed this season, just as Yuna did between before 2007 and after).

Do I prefer virtuosity over lyrical performance? Maybe yes. But I like lyrical programs too. But in order to be lyrical, you have to be very gracious, musical and artistic: otherwise lyrical programs tend to become boring. As far as American ladies are concerned, I think Alissa is the most lyrical. Her flexibility helps because she is able to express herself musically in her own way of gracious movements: otherwise her flexibility would have become acrobatic too.

As for artistry and star quality among the current top American ladies, I think Mirai and Ashley is better than Caroline and Rachel. Maybe the latter are better in consistency but they do not evoke any emotional movement for me yet. But I think Caroline has qualifications to grow into a artistic, musical, elegant skater if she gets to feel music later and be able to express it with body gestures, because she has a good body line and flexibility: her slow (boring) skating is a problem to solve, though.

Zartian - thanks for your thoughtful reply. Without dragging out this discussion too end, I will just say we understand each other in that we differ, if that makes sense.

I also believe that the virtuoso skater is more popular than the lyrical skater, but my preference lies in the latter.

Can a virtuoso skater be dramatic or comedic? Easily and Cirque du Soleil shows how acrobatics with a semblance of ballet-like poses pleases that particular audience.

Can a lyrical skater be dramactic or comedic? Not easily, especially if there is no outside story line to guide them. but they feel sorrow or humor in the music without overselling it.

Age has a lot to do with this. The more mature the skater is outside of skating the more mature the skating will be. You may, however, prefer the little girls more than the mature ones. Many do.

Senior Dance, except for the judging shows maturity best in skating. Age again. I know, I know, I know, the Shibutanis!! They are very talented in the little team way, for me.

my totally subjective list

There are so many fascinating ways to think of this question, and it means a lot to me because the thing I love best about skating is probably the music.

I can't find it, but I agree with the earlier remark that a musical skater is someone who makes you feel as if he or she is creating the music for the very first time as you watch. I don't think versatility is necessarily involved. A lot of old Soviet-trained skaters could break your heart with Tchaikovsky but couldn't have skated to popular idioms like jazz or Broadway if their lives depended on it. (I still cringe when I recall poor Klimova and Ponomarenko trying their best with "The Lonely Goatherd" because they owed us a polka during the Olympic year. In all other regards, they were peerless.) To me, a musical skater is one who makes the music paramount. This requires a certain amount of technique and artistry, so I don't see musicality and artistry being in conflict. At its best, musicality involves music that isn't heard too frequently.

Probably everyone has a different view of which skaters are musical, but I think most people would agree about Janet Lynn, who glowed like a sunrise when she skated. Many people would also cite Kwan; I certainly put her near the top of my list. I'd add Kurt Browning and Paul Wylie without hesitation.Sasha Cohen would make it onto my list, and Alexei Yagudin. Also Yuka Sato, whose carriage, footwork, and generally radiant presence make the most of whatever music she skates to. Katya Gordeyeva, with a partner or without, definitely skates from somewhere inside the music. New skaters: well, I like the way Mao Asada uses music. I find her very light and expressive. Yu Na, of course, is there. Alissa Czisny is musical, if only she could jump consistently. Nagasu and Zhang I have great hopes for. I'm leaving out a huge list of pairs and ice dancers from all eras. If I had to limit my totally subjective list to five, it would be Browning, Lynn, Kwan, Wylie, and Gordeyeva. (Without Grinkov only because she also did such great work as a soloist and with Ilya Kulik.)

to me musicality of a skater is One who Can skate to anykind of music and Interpet any kind of Music.--Michelle is one.
Mao and Yu-na are becoming those kind of skaters.
Joannie surprised me a super challenge and did that.
Sasha can skate to the Music --sometimes--(but not all--especially slow songs)) But Not Interpret it. (sorry, i KNOW I am in the minority).
patrick chan can both skate and interpret the music--just like jeffrey buttle,
Ilia can after skating on shows.-
evan i am not sure of yet,
johnny can interpet but not skate to the music.
miki is trying to do both --sometimes succeeds sometimes not.
Kimmie --i dont know
caroline zhang can skate to the music--interpret slightly-
rachel is trying to skate to the music-not interpret.

TO me interpretation doesn't me--just moving hands and body in motion to the music-it means also involving what the skater feels from the music and how they see it where it is felt by the audience-which is lacking under the cop-
sometimes the skaters hit -sometimes they don't.

but only my view.

3 most musical skaters in my opinion

The three most musical skaters in my opinion are : Jeffrey Buttle, Kurt Browning and Paul Wylie. They can skate to just about any type of music and make it a magical piece of work. They're entire bodies, face included show their emotions, their joy, etc. When I watch Jeffrey skating to "Pagliachi", I get very emotional. I go to you tube to watch these 3 men skate. It is such a great experience to watch them.

musical skaters

Isn't it great that after all these years, Browning and Wylie still top so many fans' lists? The lovely thing about them is that they grew so much artistically after they stopped skating in eligible competition. I hope that sometime in the future, we'll get to experience a pro skating revival. Maybe it'll be in another form--online, perhaps, or straight-to-DVD. Then there will be more company for Kurt, Paul, and the other great skating artists on the best-ever list. Well, we can dream, can't we?