Toe jumps | Golden Skate

Toe jumps

Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Most skaters find the toe loop the easiest jump, with the Salchow right behind. The CoP agrees. The triple toe is the lowest valued triple (4.0) , with the Salchow next (4.5). The Zayak rule was put in place because Elaine Zayak could do triple toes all night long.

But in figure skating history, it seems that the edge jumps came first, and it took longer to master the toe jumps, even the toe loop.

First double jump by a woman: Cecelia College, 1936 (Salchow) (I think Gillis Grafstrom might have been the first man to do a double Sal, in 1920.)

First triple jump: Dick Button, 1952 (loop!)

First triple Salchow: Men, Ronnie Robertson, 1955; Ladies, Petra Burke, 1962.

First triple toe loop: Thomas Litz, 1964

How did it happen that Dick Button could do a jump that is still pretty hard for today's skaters, a triple loop, more than a decade before anyone could do a triple toe?

Quads were the other way around. Kurt Browning was credited with the first quad toe in 1988, and others landed them with only the slighest of two-foot landings at about the same time. In wasn't until a decade later, 1998, that Tim Goebel landed the first quad Salchow.
 

dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Country
United-States
Math, I've always wondered why it worked that way. One reason would be that some skaters are better at toe jumps, and some at edge jumps. Uncle Dick was a good edge jumper-but why he picked the loop rather than the salchow to do as the first triple is definitely one of lifes little mysteries.

If there's a Push Dick's Button at this year's Olympics, I hope someone will ask him that question.
 

i love to skate

Medalist
Joined
Dec 13, 2005
My guess for the quads is that it is easier to get the required strength, lift, and power needed from a toe pick than it is to get all that power from one foot - as you would in a salchow.
 

silver.blades

Medalist
Joined
Jan 4, 2007
Country
Canada
First triple Salchow: Men, Ronnie Robertson, 1955; Ladies, Petra Burke, 1962.
It's Petra Berka.

How did it happen that Dick Button could do a jump that is still pretty hard for today's skaters, a triple loop, more than a decade before anyone could do a triple toe?

My guess on the loop is that if you have a good loop, it's an easy jump. By that I mean when you get it it feels easy, as opposed to the Salchow which feels like it takes more effort than the loop.
 

Tinymavy15

Sinnerman for the win
Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 28, 2006
The salchow is usually the first double/triple jump learned because it feels so much like the axel. after a skater masters the axel, the double salchow is not far behind. Same with the double axel and the triple salchow.

I guess if you have a good, strong high double loops, pulling in tighter and holding it a split second longer to go for the triple is not that hard.
 

NatachaHatawa

Final Flight
Joined
Feb 4, 2008
I'm not a skater, so my knowledge of the issue is limited.

Maybe it's because the people who did those "firsts" are generally good jumpers, so they master edge jumps perfectly?
 

Tonichelle

Idita-Rock-n-Roll
Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 27, 2003
speaking of Kurt's quad and the CoP... he was afraid it wouldn't get counted because of the three turn he had to put after it to keep control and not two foot or fall -- would he have gotten dinged by the new scoring system? Still get credit, but with negative GOEs? Three turns at the end of jumps don't seem to happen too often (far more two foots and scratchy landings as much as I've noticed) these days?
 

antmanb

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 5, 2004
speaking of Kurt's quad and the CoP... he was afraid it wouldn't get counted because of the three turn he had to put after it to keep control and not two foot or fall -- would he have gotten dinged by the new scoring system? Still get credit, but with negative GOEs? Three turns at the end of jumps don't seem to happen too often (far more two foots and scratchy landings as much as I've noticed) these days?

Well i've just looked at the list of reductions and can't find turn out of a jump a one on the list. I suppose the only thing it might come under is "weak landing" for -1 GOE. Here's the reduction list for jumps:

Less rev. than required in SP (not downgraded) GOE –3
Starting from wrong edge (depending on length) –1 to –3,–GOE
Fall on landing –3, –GOE
Touch down with both hands –2, –GOE
Downgraded –1 to –3,–GOE
Touch down with one hand or free foot –1
Under rotated up to ¼ rev.(not downgraded) –1 to –2
Long preparation –1
Starting or landing on two feet –2, –GOE
Poor take-off –1 to –2
Stepping out of landing –2, –GOE
Weak landing (on toe, on wrong edge etc.) –1

It surprises me that more people (especially the pairs) don't get -2 for their salchows for starting on two feet. Nearly all the female pairs out-rig their throw salchows.

Ant
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
The ToeLoop and the ToeFlip are used to cut the prerotation of the edge Loop and the edge salchow.

Perfect edge jumps, imo, are more difficult, but who does perfect edge jumps? :biggrin:

Depending on the Toe-off of any jump the entry may be difficult for some and not for others. Flips for some skaters are more difficult than Lutzes. The base values have been established so there is no point in discussing this except to voice one's disapproval of the base values. I believe most skaters have difficulty in mastering the counter rotations jumps of Lutzes and Walleys.
 

jeff goldblum

On the Ice
Joined
Mar 16, 2005
I learned my double salchow far easier than I did the double toe loop; the latter took a long time. On the other hand, when I learned triples, the toe loop came rather easily and the salchow was a bit tougher to nail down. I think the technique changes a bit as you're doing either a double or a triple jump. Timing of jumps get adjusted in different ways. It's odd though to think of how many skaters list the triple salchow as their least favorite jump. The three that immediately come to mind are Kristi Yamaguchi, Angela Nikodinov, and Ann Patrice McDonough, perhaps Caroline Zhang as well. And I'm sure there are others.
 
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Tonichelle

Idita-Rock-n-Roll
Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 27, 2003
the sal was/is Scott Hamilton's favorite jump (oddly enough I think that was the one he popped at the Olympics, I could be wrong, though lol)
 

Mafke

Medalist
Joined
Mar 22, 2004
Scott Hamilton is certainly not the best at explaining technique, but I seem to recall a fluff feature on jump take-offs and he said that the first triple most skaters do is the salchow because the feet begin far apart and bringing the free leg in helps with the rotation.

But once the timing for a triple jump is established the toe loop seems to be easier for most skaters. In other words, the triple salchow is easier to learn than the triple toe but not the easiest to do once you've learned both.

BTW, has there ever been an elite international skater with the toe-loop as nemisis jump? I can think of examples for all the other jumps but not the toeloop.

IIRC outrigging the salchow has never been a downgradable feature though purists (like me) don't much like it.

Also I seem to recall Hamilton saying that doing the throw salchow so long in pairs messed up Yamaguchi's timing for the solo salchow (more likely she just learned the timing for the throw salchow but never quite got it for the solo jump).
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
Most skaters, at their best, rotate in the air either to the left or right. Few skaters are able to rotate in both directions. That said, the Salchow is blocked by the back inside edge in turning to best rotation side, and the skater must make use of the free leg to get the air rotation(s) in addition to muscle force. The Loop jump is not blocked by the back outside edge and just requires the skater to use more muscle force. (Both jumps are easily prerotated especially in combos or sequences)

The use of the Toe-offs in both these jumps (the toe-loop and the flip) would normally prevent the jumps from prerotations on the ice. (The Laak toe pick take offs are not being discussed here.) I would say the Salchow and Flip are the two jumps slightly more difficult than the Loop and Toe-loop.

.
 

antmanb

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 5, 2004
I learned my double salchow far easier than I did the double toe loop; the latter took a long time. On the other hand, when I learned triples, the toe loop came rather easily and the salchow was a bit tougher to nail down. I think the technique changes a bit as you're doing either a double or a triple jump. Timing of jumps get adjusted in different ways. It's odd though to think of how many skaters list the triple salchow as their least favorite jump. The three that immediately come to mind are Kristi Yamaguchi, Angela Nikodinov, and Ann Patrice McDonough, perhaps Caroline Zhang as well. And I'm sure there are others.

I've observed similar situations at my rink. Most of the skaters (particularly the girls) struggle with the double toe despite having pretty good double up through to Lutz. It seems that they just don't get the same height on the toe-loop that they do on their other doubles.

BTW, has there ever been an elite international skater with the toe-loop as nemisis jump? I can think of examples for all the other jumps but not the toeloop.

Well i'm not sure if you might count Mao Asada in there because of her toe-axel but she has fixed that.

The other skater that came to mind when you asked was Amber Corwin. Although she didn't skate under COP i've no doubt she'd have struggled to get the triple toe ratified given her technique issues with the jump.

Ant
 
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Mafke

Medalist
Joined
Mar 22, 2004
Well i'm not sure if you might count Mao Asada in there because of her toe-axel but she has not fixed that.
The other skater that came to mind when you asked was Amber Corwin. Although she didn't skate under COP i've no doubt she'd have struggled to get the triple toe ratified given her technique issues with the jump.

I guess Meissner toe-axled too. But by nemisis jump I mean a jump a skater leaves out because they can't do it or they fall on it. I think CoP as it has evolved has changed the calculations somewhat with the question being less "Can I land it?" to "Can I rotate it?"

IIRC Corwin did compete under CoP (at least when it was being beta-tested) in fact (drawing on my big store o' useless trivia) I'm pretty sure she was a surprise loser in the first ever senior CoP competition when the caller (Urmanov) downgraded most or all of her triples to doubles (the comp was won by .... Jennifer Don?)
 

Oscilla

On the Ice
Joined
Sep 1, 2006
Well i'm not sure if you might count Mao Asada in there because of her toe-axel but she has not fixed that.

?? Mao had toe-axeled up to 2005. Back then she used to attempt 3F-3T, which had good landings, but got downgraded because of toe-axeling.

She didn't attempt any 3Ts or 2Ts in 05-06 season in internationals competitions. She landed 2T (in 3A-2T combination) at Nationals, but it was toe-axeled and downgraded.

She fixed and brought back 3T as a part of 2A-3T combo in the 06-07 season. She landed it cleanly at NHK Trophy and URed it at Worlds (but it was not toe-axeled).

In 07-08 season she included 3F-3T, which was ratified 3 times and downgraded once. None of 3Ts were toe-axeled.

In 08-09 season she included 3T as a solo jump out of steps in the 2nd half of her LP and 'Tano 2T as a second part of 3A-2T combo. All of the attempts were ratified, none toe-axeled. Mao credited the improvement of her 3T to TAT, who reportedly asked Mao to attempt the jump out of difficult steps until she became fully comfortable with it. There was a practice footage on YT showing Mao working on her 2T and 3T (also 3T-2'TanoT, etc.)

Skaters who I noticed toe-axeling: Kimmie Meissner (mostly on 3-3T combos), Mai Asada (2T in combos), Yukari Nakano (2T in combos).

I can't think of any (top) skater who could not land 3T or kept falling on it... Usually it's the easiest jump for the skaters and the one they most often attempt in Galas/shows.
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
One will have to see Asada's 'toe axel' to know that that is the reason for calling the attempt a UR. The symbol in the protocol is the same for either the Landing of a jump or a toe-axel or a toe toe-loop. Best way to see this is through the Caller's monitor since the 2 dimensional tapes do not display errors easily; and the 3 dimentional Live requires an audience member to be right in view of the skater.

Several years ago I argued with a poster (no longer with us) that Evan did not do a toe axel. She produced a youtube of Evan's axel and she was absolutely correct. I just need visible proof because I will not get it in the protocols. btw, Evan was not marked down for it. So much for the infallibility of the Caller.
 

jeff goldblum

On the Ice
Joined
Mar 16, 2005
While this may be a purely semantic argument, there is a difference in my opinion between heavily pre-rotating a toe loop jump and a toe axel. I believe the definition has always been the same, even in the pre-COP days when there may not have been a specific deduction for the error. Like flutzing, which was described in the rule book as deliberately changing to the back inside edge or making no attempt to be on a back outside edge, the same is true of the toe axel. This is when a skater deliberately turns forward BEFORE even putting the toe in the ice. Under the old system and this description, therefore, it could be said that someone like Michelle Kwan was actually attempting to hit the back outside edge, where as Nicole Bobek's or Tara Lipinski's technique was merely to do the jump off an inside edge. I've seen certain skaters attempt triple toe loops in practice from a standstill in which they use the take off as a pivot, turning on the ice to start the rotation. This is different from a toe axel even though the resultant pre-rotation may be the same. Whether good or bad, toe axeling or flutzing, the COP doesn't seem to care whether it's deliberate or not. If it's pre-rotated it's pre-rotated.

Here are some rather egregious examples of toe axels:

The Lutz-toe combination
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZkrZjy5Xfc

And again the same, though for different reasons
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WgFygrgyIxc

I'd need a little more time to find some toe loops that are pre-rotated but not toe axels.
 

Tonichelle

Idita-Rock-n-Roll
Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 27, 2003
Also I seem to recall Hamilton saying that doing the throw salchow so long in pairs messed up Yamaguchi's timing for the solo salchow (more likely she just learned the timing for the throw salchow but never quite got it for the solo jump).

I remember him saying that over the years as well (it may have been in his book as well). He's not the only one who suggested it (it's in one of the general figure skating books I have...).
 

antmanb

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 5, 2004
Sorry can i just point out that i had a typo in my original post - i meant to say Mao has fixed her toe-axel now but didn't proof read my post!

Ant
 
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