Toe jumps

[Oscilla]

Well i'm not sure if you might count Mao Asada in there because of her toe-axel but she has not fixed that.

?? Mao had toe-axeled up to 2005. Back then she used to attempt 3F-3T, which had good landings, but got downgraded because of toe-axeling.

She didn't attempt any 3Ts or 2Ts in 05-06 season in internationals competitions. She landed 2T (in 3A-2T combination) at Nationals, but it was toe-axeled and downgraded.

She fixed and brought back 3T as a part of 2A-3T combo in the 06-07 season. She landed it cleanly at NHK Trophy and URed it at Worlds (but it was not toe-axeled).

In 07-08 season she included 3F-3T, which was ratified 3 times and downgraded once. None of 3Ts were toe-axeled.

In 08-09 season she included 3T as a solo jump out of steps in the 2nd half of her LP and 'Tano 2T as a second part of 3A-2T combo. All of the attempts were ratified, none toe-axeled. Mao credited the improvement of her 3T to TAT, who reportedly asked Mao to attempt the jump out of difficult steps until she became fully comfortable with it. There was a practice footage on YT showing Mao working on her 2T and 3T (also 3T-2'TanoT, etc.)

Skaters who I noticed toe-axeling: Kimmie Meissner (mostly on 3-3T combos), Mai Asada (2T in combos), Yukari Nakano (2T in combos).

I can't think of any (top) skater who could not land 3T or kept falling on it... Usually it's the easiest jump for the skaters and the one they most often attempt in Galas/shows.

[Joesitz]

One will have to see Asada's 'toe axel' to know that that is the reason for calling the attempt a UR. The symbol in the protocol is the same for either the Landing of a jump or a toe-axel or a toe toe-loop. Best way to see this is through the Caller's monitor since the 2 dimensional tapes do not display errors easily; and the 3 dimentional Live requires an audience member to be right in view of the skater.

Several years ago I argued with a poster (no longer with us) that Evan did not do a toe axel. She produced a youtube of Evan's axel and she was absolutely correct. I just need visible proof because I will not get it in the protocols. btw, Evan was not marked down for it. So much for the infallibility of the Caller.

[jeff goldblum]

While this may be a purely semantic argument, there is a difference in my opinion between heavily pre-rotating a toe loop jump and a toe axel. I believe the definition has always been the same, even in the pre-COP days when there may not have been a specific deduction for the error. Like flutzing, which was described in the rule book as deliberately changing to the back inside edge or making no attempt to be on a back outside edge, the same is true of the toe axel. This is when a skater deliberately turns forward BEFORE even putting the toe in the ice. Under the old system and this description, therefore, it could be said that someone like Michelle Kwan was actually attempting to hit the back outside edge, where as Nicole Bobek's or Tara Lipinski's technique was merely to do the jump off an inside edge. I've seen certain skaters attempt triple toe loops in practice from a standstill in which they use the take off as a pivot, turning on the ice to start the rotation. This is different from a toe axel even though the resultant pre-rotation may be the same. Whether good or bad, toe axeling or flutzing, the COP doesn't seem to care whether it's deliberate or not. If it's pre-rotated it's pre-rotated.

Here are some rather egregious examples of toe axels:

The Lutz-toe combination
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZkrZjy5Xfc

And again the same, though for different reasons
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WgFygrgyIxc

I'd need a little more time to find some toe loops that are pre-rotated but not toe axels.

[Tonichelle]

Also I seem to recall Hamilton saying that doing the throw salchow so long in pairs messed up Yamaguchi's timing for the solo salchow (more likely she just learned the timing for the throw salchow but never quite got it for the solo jump).

I remember him saying that over the years as well (it may have been in his book as well). He's not the only one who suggested it (it's in one of the general figure skating books I have...).

[antmanb]

Sorry can i just point out that i had a typo in my original post - i meant to say Mao has fixed her toe-axel now but didn't proof read my post!

Ant

[antmanb]

I guess Meissner toe-axled too. But by nemisis jump I mean a jump a skater leaves out because they can't do it or they fall on it. I think CoP as it has evolved has changed the calculations somewhat with the question being less "Can I land it?" to "Can I rotate it?"

IIRC Corwin did compete under CoP (at least when it was being beta-tested) in fact (drawing on my big store o' useless trivia) I'm pretty sure she was a surprise loser in the first ever senior CoP competition when the caller (Urmanov) downgraded most or all of her triples to doubles (the comp was won by .... Jennifer Don?)

I'm also drawing a blank on any skaters who couldn't do or regularly fell on the triple toe. Maybe some of the pairs skaters (Mandy Woetzel for example) but then for the pairs skaters that would have been their most difficult jump so it's a different thing altogether.

Or maybe John Baldwin since by all accounts he can do nearly all the triples but rarely if ever lands a triple toe SBS. Apparently he does land it solo fine it's just when he attempts it SBS with his partner that it goes wrong.

Ant

[Joesitz]

While this may be a purely semantic argument, there is a difference in my opinion between heavily pre-rotating a toe loop jump and a toe axel. I believe the definition has always been the same, even in the pre-COP days when there may not have been a specific deduction for the error. Like flutzing, which was described in the rule book as deliberately changing to the back inside edge or making no attempt to be on a back outside edge, the same is true of the toe axel. This is when a skater deliberately turns forward BEFORE even putting the toe in the ice. Under the old system and this description, therefore, it could be said that someone like Michelle Kwan was actually attempting to hit the back outside edge, where as Nicole Bobek's or Tara Lipinski's technique was merely to do the jump off an inside edge. I've seen certain skaters attempt triple toe loops in practice from a standstill in which they use the take off as a pivot, turning on the ice to start the rotation. This is different from a toe axel even though the resultant pre-rotation may be the same. Whether good or bad, toe axeling or flutzing, the COP doesn't seem to care whether it's deliberate or not. If it's pre-rotated it's pre-rotated.

What a great post on Toe-axels and Flutzing. What I got out of your post was the controversy of whether these errors are ATTEMPTS or DELIBERATES. I am of the opinion that a jump has a definition and anything short of that definition on the Take-Off negates giving that jump a name. So a Toe-Axel or a Flutz does not have any official name to judge those jumps, and I would say giving those unnamed jumps, the modifier Attempts are wrong. The CoP judges what a skater does, and the skater who attempts did not do any specific jump to assess.

However, you are correct in deciding whether an attempt was made to do the correct toe-off or whether the jump was to get partial credit for the unnamed jump. Some fans believe the triple air turns, which are now in a better position to be executed along with the ensuing landings. The skater is now more comfortable with what the errors bring, and in many cases the penalty for the unnamed jump can be awarded partial credit with plus GoEs. You figure.

The only genuine attempt I could see was a take-off on the flat of the blade. This was Michelle's problem in many attempts, but for an old curmudgeon like me, it still wasn't a defined jump. I kind of like the Toe-Axel. It is somewhat balletic, but still not part of the Axel's definition.

I enjoyed reading your post but would prefer the youtube links to go slomo. Two dimentional displays can be misleading, imo.

[antmanb]

The skater is now more comfortable with what the errors bring, and in many cases the penalty for the unnamed jump can be awarded partial credit with plus GoEs.

No Joe you are wrong there - if a jump takes off from the wrong edge ("e") whether solo or in combination the entire jump must have an overall negative GOE - it cannot be given plus GOE overall. I can't seem to link the rules because I have a downloaded PDF with no web address on it.

Ant

[Joesitz]

^^^
None of this is clear, Ant, imo. I would love to see an official paper on what defines each jump.

btw, I am now beginning to think that a Toe-Axel is not an UR but a Wrong Edge Takeoff. There are still 3 rotations to make.before the landing and of course, the landing could be an UR but that would not be 'secret'.

[Mafke]

I would love to see an official paper on what defines each jump.

So would I. I somehow think the ISU will never do that because to actually define jumps would paint them into a corner they don't want to be in.

On the other hand, USFSA might actually define jumps somewhere or other.

My own preference is to distinguish approach and edge. Sarah Hughes (for example) never (AFAICT) did a lutz, she had two different approaches for the flip, one more conventional, one preceded by a BO to BI change of edge (the change of edge in her case always seemed completely deliberate).

For the record I'm fine with rewriting Zayak to count different approaches as different jumps (though in the context of CoP awarding the change of edge flip less points than a lutz).

Also for the record I'm less concerned about skaters that change edge just as they're taking off. I suspect that if you examined the tracings the great majority of skaters actually are on an inside edge at the moment of takeoff.

[antmanb]

^^^
None of this is clear, Ant, imo. I would love to see an official paper on what defines each jump.

btw, I am now beginning to think that a Toe-Axel is not an UR but a Wrong Edge Takeoff. There are still 3 rotations to make.before the landing and of course, the landing could be an UR but that would not be 'secret'.

Wouldn't that be a hoot! BUt i'm not sure it would really work for the toe-axel because there is no wrong edge - the RBO take of edge is correct - it's the fact the left picking foot has turned all the way to forwards before the pick goes in that causes the problem. And because of that on the "triple toe" that turns into a toe-axel there's only two and half revolutions required before the landing.

Ant

[Joesitz]

For the record I'm fine with rewriting Zayak to count different approaches as different jumps (though in the context of CoP awarding the change of edge flip less points than a lutz)

I just can't buy that. An element is an element and jumps are very special in that field. If a jump directs the skater to take-off a certain way which gives the jump a name, then that has to happen, imo. Without that back outside takeoff what do you call that jump? A Flutz would be a perfect name, but the ISU will not recognize the Flutz; the definition would be a change-edge-takeoff, and base value to differentiate between the lutz and flip.

I'm just as bad with a Flying Camel or a Jump Camel??? Are there defintitions to distinguish these?

Also for the record I'm less concerned about skaters that change edge just as they're taking off. I suspect that if you examined the tracings the great majority of skaters actually are on an inside edge at the moment of takeoff.

I tend to agree with you here. There is that new way to approach a lutz in secret to avoid the Liashenko entry by cross over to a boe in a very mintzy manner so the Caller has trouble seeing the back outside edge takeoff under the guise of high level transition cross over. hmm. My opinion, Liashenko was right on to show the correct lutz take-off. It is possible, and most European skaters do proper lutzes. It's only the very young who are impatient in training to bother with the take-off and the flutz becomes a way of life to them. I say don't score the Flutz or make it legal.

[Joesitz]

Wouldn't that be a hoot! BUt i'm not sure it would really work for the toe-axel because there is no wrong edge - the RBO take of edge is correct - it's the fact the left picking foot has turned all the way to forwards before the pick goes in that causes the problem. And because of that on the "triple toe" that turns into a toe-axel there's only two and half revolutions required before the landing.Ant

It would be a hoot and a half. Using the real ballet term, pique just isn't in the skating vocabulary. But it is a wrong take-off more, imo, than an underrotation if the skater lands properly after rotating in the air 3 times.

[antmanb]

It would be a hoot and a half. Using the real ballet term, pique just isn't in the skating vocabulary. But it is a wrong take-off more, imo, than an underrotation if the skater lands properly after rotating in the air 3 times.

Joe can you describe what the ballet term pique means please? I have a less than beginner knowledge of ballet!

Ant

[Joesitz]

^^^

I will try. A dancer when facing the audience will pique to the left (or right) that is place the toe on the stage then turn it slightly while the dancer lifts the other foot to face the west side of the stage These Pique Turns can be done in a series across the stage or in a circle around the stage. The ballarina after doing her variation will often do many pique turns and a final pique arabasque near the wing.

Maybe this will help: http://www.abt.org/education/dictionary/index.html

The boys seldom do piques but do Saute de Basques (axel like) around the stage increasing the rotations to doubles and finally ending in a triple to the knee. That gets the audience going.