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Thread: Consistency - Is it Real?

  1. #16
    Custom Title antmanb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joesitz View Post
    I agree but I would say mental or lack of concentration causes poor technique. Ice conditions (ruts) can also cause a Fall accidentally but I think only for one jump. Indeed, ruts are bad luck.
    The only thing is that "poor technique" to me sounds more final, and less transient, if that makes any sense. Like you are saying that a skater always has poor technique rather than a skater showed poor techique on that one element because of a mistake.

    For example I think Kwan had great jump technique, she could rely on that technique in competitions. She once fell on a triple salchow. Does that mean she fell because she had poor technique? I would answer no - the salchow was usually one of her money jumps, she simply made a mistake on the jump.

    I suppose i'm saying that to me a one off mistake does not = poor technique.

    Ant

  2. #17
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by antmanb View Post
    For example I think Kwan had great jump technique, she could rely on that technique in competitions. She once fell on a triple salchow. Does that mean she fell because she had poor technique? I would answer no - the salchow was usually one of her money jumps, she simply made a mistake on the jump.
    That "once" was 2005 worlds, right?

    According to Heather's jump statistics (which I have memorized ), in the decade from 1995 to 2004 Michelle never fell on a triple Salchow. 78 straight competitions, including Olys, Worlds, Grand Prix, Nationals, pro-ams, and cheesefests, without a fall on a triple Sal.

  3. #18
    Custom Title antmanb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    That "once" was 2005 worlds, right?

    According to Heather's jump statistics (which I have memorized ), in the decade from 1995 to 2004 Michelle never fell on a triple Salchow. 78 straight competitions, including Olys, Worlds, Grand Prix, Nationals, pro-ams, and cheesefests, without a fall on a triple Sal.
    That was exactly what i was thinking of MM I also included it because she often had it in her exhibitions (along with the triple Lutz and triple toe) which usually signifies that the skater feels it is truly a "safe" jump.

    Ant

  4. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Buttercup View Post
    A fall isn't necessarily caused by poor technique; it can also be due to something mental, or just lack of concentration, or ice conditions, or just bad luck (like catching your toe pick on something). URs and wrong edges are definitely a technique issue.

    BravesSkateFan, long time no see! I know this is totally off topic, but when I saw your name in this thread I suddenly had a mental image of Brian McCann trying a 3A .
    Hey! Yeah I've been off enjoying my other obsessions lately. LOL Kind of put FS on the back burner for a while. Funny that you pictured McCann, he's my favorite Brave right now.

  5. #20
    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by antmanb View Post
    The only thing is that "poor technique" to me sounds more final, and less transient, if that makes any sense. Like you are saying that a skater always has poor technique rather than a skater showed poor techique on that one element because of a mistake.

    For example I think Kwan had great jump technique, she could rely on that technique in competitions. She once fell on a triple salchow. Does that mean she fell because she had poor technique? I would answer no - the salchow was usually one of her money jumps, she simply made a mistake on the jump.

    I suppose i'm saying that to me a one off mistake does not = poor technique.

    Ant
    to clarify my statement: One can have poor technique on that important night. It doesn't mean it happens always in some cases. Stage dancers lose some technique occasionally.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    That "once" was 2005 worlds, right?

    According to Heather's jump statistics (which I have memorized ), in the decade from 1995 to 2004 Michelle never fell on a triple Salchow. 78 straight competitions, including Olys, Worlds, Grand Prix, Nationals, pro-ams, and cheesefests, without a fall on a triple Sal.
    With the hip problem going full blast by 2004 which jumps had she started to leave out? was it the salchow or the loop?
    Last edited by Tonichelle; 07-27-2009 at 10:54 AM. Reason: merging posts, please use the multiquote feature

  6. #21
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joesitz View Post
    With the hip problem going full blast by 2004 which jumps had she started to leave out? was it the salchow or the loop?
    Michelle continued to do all the triples throughout the 2003-2004 season. At 2004 Nationals she did 3Lo, 3Lz+2T, 3F, 2A, 3S, 3T, 3Lz. At Worlds she had the same jump layout. She hit both the loop and the Salkchow but doubled the second Lutz.

    2004 Worlds was the last time she did a triple loop.

    She tried to keep her Salchow to the end. She landed it at 2005 Nationals, but at 2005 worlds she doubled it in the qualifying round and fell in the LP.

  7. #22
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    NERVES, NERVEs, NERVes, NERves, NErves, Nerves, nerves.............

    The biggest factor is nerves. Ask any competitor and they will tell you is the Nerves. Technique whether of poor quality or not does not affect a consistent program, we just may not like the way it looks. Yukari has poor technique yet she is often a consistent performer, she has stronger nerves that say Czisny, or Cohen.

    Kwan was/is blessed with both strong technique and nerves of steel, just like one of her idols, Brian Boitano. Yamaguchi was another skater of equal talent like Miss Kwan, minus the longevity, although if she had wanted she could have easily kept competing for many more years.

  8. #23
    Off the ice Buttercup's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BravesSkateFan View Post
    Hey! Yeah I've been off enjoying my other obsessions lately. LOL Kind of put FS on the back burner for a while. Funny that you pictured McCann, he's my favorite Brave right now.
    Very OT
    I think it was because I saw part of the Braves-Mets game on Fox on Saturday, and he looked like someone who should not be attempting jumps of any kind (he should stick to what he does best ). Although it's still amusing if I try and picture Jair Jurrjens or Chipper jumping triples. I'll leave you to figure out which Braves player would look funniest in the attempt.

  9. #24
    Always supporting skaters :) 100yen's Avatar
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    With everyone mentioning consistent skaters, I've noticed Yu-Na's name being brought up a lot. Yes, this season she was very consistent, but I have to point out she is not consistent under pressure. To be exact, when that pressure is put on her by other skaters, Mao in particular.
    Yu-Na is able to perform her best when she knows her rivals are very behind her, and in case of the lp, when she has an sp score so high that there's about 10 points between her and the next skater. Especially looking at previous seasons and the last half of this past season this seems to be true--when she feels a lot of pressure on her by Mao she seems to break.
    I'm not trying to make Yu-Na sound any less great, but I'm trying to say can figure skating truly be a "consistent" sport when athletes are constantly challenging themselves to do harder and harder elements.

  10. #25
    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
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    Here's my take on this:

    A skater can be generally inconsistent on his general skating (but should not be in Seniors)

    A skater (in Seniors) can be inconsistent on one or more parts of his program (elements, speed, musicality,posture, etc.}

    All of the above are correctable, imo.

    A well established Senior skater may have inconsistencies because of loss of focus due to outside influences. It will happen in one competition and, it is not permanent.

    Using the term Inconsistent to describe a skater should be well thought out before it is used JMO

  11. #26
    On the Ice dkyoun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 100yen View Post
    I have to point out she is not consistent under pressure. To be exact, when that pressure is put on her by other skaters, Mao in particular.
    Yu-Na is able to perform her best when she knows her rivals are very behind her, and in case of the lp, when she has an sp score so high that there's about 10 points between her and the next skater. Especially looking at previous seasons and the last half of this past season this seems to be true--when she feels a lot of pressure on her by Mao she seems to break.
    100yen, your comment was interesting. So I checked it on the protocols.
    There were 5 competitions Yu-Na and Mao both competed with during the last 2 years. Let’s see the scores.

    2007~2008 Season
    ① GPF
    Yu-Na 64.62 132.21 196.83 1
    Mao 59.04 132.55 191.59 2
    ② World
    Yu-Na 59.85 123.38 183.23 3
    Mao 64.10 121.46 185.56 1

    2008~2009 Season
    ③ GPF
    Yu-Na 65.94 120.41 186.35 2
    Mao 65.38 123.17 188.55 1
    ④ 4CC
    Yu-Na 72.24 116.83 189.07 1
    Mao 57.86 118.66 176.52 3
    ⑤ World
    Yu-na 76.12 131.59 207.71 1
    Mao 66.06 122.03 188.09 4

    > When Yu-Na was about 4 points behind, she did the best LP in the competition. (Case ②)
    > When Yu-Na was leading about 5 points ahead, she did almost her PB(Case ①) and just 2.76 behind (Case ③).
    > When Yu-Na was leading about 10 points ahead, she did her worst LP(Case ④) and SB(Case ⑤).

    In conclusion, the numbers above do not show us her pressure by other skaters.
    Yeah! She is also a human-being and showed us her pressure at GPF in Korea. But it was her mother nation and lots of expectations were there.
    In other competitions, never did she.

    Figure skating is, so to speak, not the boxing or wrestling. It needs not to knock down counterparts but to focus ones performance, control ones mind and do ones very best. That’s all.

    IMHO, skaters may feel pressure when they are injured, not in complete condition, not convinced of ones technique, under excessive expectation, etc.
    They do not need to feel pressure by other skaters.

    Whether s/he is consistent or not, I wish figure fans do respect his or her hard work and effort in earnest.

    100yen, It’s not to criticize your opinion. I just checked it out and wanna clarify the fact.
    I want it wouldn't hurt you.

  12. #27
    Tripping on the Podium
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    I think of inconsistent meaning a skater has certain known abilities, but whether or not he/she performs to those abilities in competition is like a coin toss: 50/50.

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Red Dog View Post
    Yuna has showed that she isn't invincible. And just last season, Mao showed us she isn't, either.

    This could be an interesting season, and deja vu could appear at the Olys once again, with Asada nor Kim winning (Ando, perhaps? don't take this as a prediction, just an example).
    That might as well happen. But the only important title (worlds, the last two 4cc, gpf, and may I include Japanese Nats?) neither of the two managed to win was more than two years ago. If someone other than the two wins OGM in vancouver, I will be shocked, and you'll be saying "I told you so"

  14. #29
    Always supporting skaters :) 100yen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dkyoun View Post
    2007~2008 Season
    ① GPF
    Yu-Na 64.62 132.21 196.83 1
    Mao 59.04 132.55 191.59 2
    ② World
    Yu-Na 59.85 123.38 183.23 3
    Mao 64.10 121.46 185.56 1

    2008~2009 Season
    ③ GPF
    Yu-Na 65.94 120.41 186.35 2
    Mao 65.38 123.17 188.55 1
    ④ 4CC
    Yu-Na 72.24 116.83 189.07 1
    Mao 57.86 118.66 176.52 3
    ⑤ World
    Yu-na 76.12 131.59 207.71 1
    Mao 66.06 122.03 188.09 4

    > When Yu-Na was about 4 points behind, she did the best LP in the competition. (Case ②)
    > When Yu-Na was leading about 5 points ahead, she did almost her PB(Case ①) and just 2.76 behind (Case ③).
    > When Yu-Na was leading about 10 points ahead, she did her worst LP(Case ④) and SB(Case ⑤).

    In conclusion, the numbers above do not show us her pressure by other skaters.
    Yeah! She is also a human-being and showed us her pressure at GPF in Korea. But it was her mother nation and lots of expectations were there.
    In other competitions, never did she.

    Whether s/he is consistent or not, I wish figure fans do respect his or her hard work and effort in earnest.

    100yen, It’s not to criticize your opinion. I just checked it out and wanna clarify the fact.
    I want it wouldn't hurt you.
    Oh, I'm not saying Kim isn't human, and it is perfectly understandable, even inevitable that nerves will show in competition if too much pressure is put on one individual.

    At the 2007 GPF, Mao was almost 5 points behind Yu-Na after the free skate and Mao also fell on her 3-3 combination there. Of course, this lifted a huge amount of pressure off of Yu-Na and she was able to have a great FS.
    At Worlds 2008, the point I was trying to prove isn't too clear, as Yu-Na had an excellent FS, though she did pop her 3L.

    Otherwise, the entire 2008-2009 shows what I am trying to say. When Mao placed a high SP score and threatened Yu-Na's, and Yu-Na ended up faltering on the FS. Okay, taking your valid point that it was her home country and there was a great amount of expectation...a great amount of pressure.

    The last two events especially show what I am trying to say as Yu-Na had a huge lead above Mao in the SP, taking a lot of pressure off of her and allowing her to skate at very nearly her top ability.

    In absolutely no way am I trying to downplay Yu-Na or insult her, she is an incredible, artistic, talent, but when skaters start closing in on her in the SP (her most confident program type)--she can't take that kind of pressure (and it effects her consistency). At least not now.
    I also dislike having to single out Asada in this matter, but Kim (as well as Mao) has pointed her out as her main rival for years numerous times.
    No hard feelings~.
    Last edited by 100yen; 07-22-2009 at 12:52 PM.

  15. #30
    At the rink. Again. mskater93's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joesitz View Post
    Using the term Inconsistent to describe a skater should be well thought out before it is used JMO
    I think you need to look at a skater's body of work to be able to apply the term inconsistent. Because a skater has a bad week with a jump during Worlds this year but has landed it 90% of the time previously does not make them inconsistent. If a skater has a body of work that is more than 50% of the time marred by mistakes, they can be labeled inconsistent.

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