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Thread: Toe jumps

  1. #1
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Toe jumps

    Most skaters find the toe loop the easiest jump, with the Salchow right behind. The CoP agrees. The triple toe is the lowest valued triple (4.0) , with the Salchow next (4.5). The Zayak rule was put in place because Elaine Zayak could do triple toes all night long.

    But in figure skating history, it seems that the edge jumps came first, and it took longer to master the toe jumps, even the toe loop.

    First double jump by a woman: Cecelia College, 1936 (Salchow) (I think Gillis Grafstrom might have been the first man to do a double Sal, in 1920.)

    First triple jump: Dick Button, 1952 (loop!)

    First triple Salchow: Men, Ronnie Robertson, 1955; Ladies, Petra Burke, 1962.

    First triple toe loop: Thomas Litz, 1964

    How did it happen that Dick Button could do a jump that is still pretty hard for today's skaters, a triple loop, more than a decade before anyone could do a triple toe?

    Quads were the other way around. Kurt Browning was credited with the first quad toe in 1988, and others landed them with only the slighest of two-foot landings at about the same time. In wasn't until a decade later, 1998, that Tim Goebel landed the first quad Salchow.

  2. #2
    Wicked Yankee Girl dorispulaski's Avatar
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    Math, I've always wondered why it worked that way. One reason would be that some skaters are better at toe jumps, and some at edge jumps. Uncle Dick was a good edge jumper-but why he picked the loop rather than the salchow to do as the first triple is definitely one of lifes little mysteries.

    If there's a Push Dick's Button at this year's Olympics, I hope someone will ask him that question.

  3. #3
    Rink Rat i love to skate's Avatar
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    My guess for the quads is that it is easier to get the required strength, lift, and power needed from a toe pick than it is to get all that power from one foot - as you would in a salchow.

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    Sitting Here on Blue Jay Way silver.blades's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post

    First triple Salchow: Men, Ronnie Robertson, 1955; Ladies, Petra Burke, 1962.
    It's Petra Berka.

    How did it happen that Dick Button could do a jump that is still pretty hard for today's skaters, a triple loop, more than a decade before anyone could do a triple toe?
    My guess on the loop is that if you have a good loop, it's an easy jump. By that I mean when you get it it feels easy, as opposed to the Salchow which feels like it takes more effort than the loop.

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    Beliver in Sasha's Perfect Program Tinymavy15's Avatar
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    The salchow is usually the first double/triple jump learned because it feels so much like the axel. after a skater masters the axel, the double salchow is not far behind. Same with the double axel and the triple salchow.

    I guess if you have a good, strong high double loops, pulling in tighter and holding it a split second longer to go for the triple is not that hard.

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    Custom Title NatachaHatawa's Avatar
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    I'm not a skater, so my knowledge of the issue is limited.

    Maybe it's because the people who did those "firsts" are generally good jumpers, so they master edge jumps perfectly?

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    and... World Peace! Tonichelle's Avatar
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    speaking of Kurt's quad and the CoP... he was afraid it wouldn't get counted because of the three turn he had to put after it to keep control and not two foot or fall -- would he have gotten dinged by the new scoring system? Still get credit, but with negative GOEs? Three turns at the end of jumps don't seem to happen too often (far more two foots and scratchy landings as much as I've noticed) these days?

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    Custom Title antmanb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tonichelle View Post
    speaking of Kurt's quad and the CoP... he was afraid it wouldn't get counted because of the three turn he had to put after it to keep control and not two foot or fall -- would he have gotten dinged by the new scoring system? Still get credit, but with negative GOEs? Three turns at the end of jumps don't seem to happen too often (far more two foots and scratchy landings as much as I've noticed) these days?
    Well i've just looked at the list of reductions and can't find turn out of a jump a one on the list. I suppose the only thing it might come under is "weak landing" for -1 GOE. Here's the reduction list for jumps:

    Less rev. than required in SP (not downgraded) GOE –3
    Starting from wrong edge (depending on length) –1 to –3,–GOE
    Fall on landing –3, –GOE
    Touch down with both hands –2, –GOE
    Downgraded –1 to –3,–GOE
    Touch down with one hand or free foot –1
    Under rotated up to ¼ rev.(not downgraded) –1 to –2
    Long preparation –1
    Starting or landing on two feet –2, –GOE
    Poor take-off –1 to –2
    Stepping out of landing –2, –GOE
    Weak landing (on toe, on wrong edge etc.) –1
    It surprises me that more people (especially the pairs) don't get -2 for their salchows for starting on two feet. Nearly all the female pairs out-rig their throw salchows.

    Ant

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    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
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    The ToeLoop and the ToeFlip are used to cut the prerotation of the edge Loop and the edge salchow.

    Perfect edge jumps, imo, are more difficult, but who does perfect edge jumps?

    Depending on the Toe-off of any jump the entry may be difficult for some and not for others. Flips for some skaters are more difficult than Lutzes. The base values have been established so there is no point in discussing this except to voice one's disapproval of the base values. I believe most skaters have difficulty in mastering the counter rotations jumps of Lutzes and Walleys.

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    I learned my double salchow far easier than I did the double toe loop; the latter took a long time. On the other hand, when I learned triples, the toe loop came rather easily and the salchow was a bit tougher to nail down. I think the technique changes a bit as you're doing either a double or a triple jump. Timing of jumps get adjusted in different ways. It's odd though to think of how many skaters list the triple salchow as their least favorite jump. The three that immediately come to mind are Kristi Yamaguchi, Angela Nikodinov, and Ann Patrice McDonough, perhaps Caroline Zhang as well. And I'm sure there are others.
    Last edited by jeff goldblum; 07-14-2009 at 02:58 PM. Reason: spelling error

  11. #11
    and... World Peace! Tonichelle's Avatar
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    the sal was/is Scott Hamilton's favorite jump (oddly enough I think that was the one he popped at the Olympics, I could be wrong, though lol)

  12. #12
    Gadfly and Bon Vivant Mafke's Avatar
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    Scott Hamilton is certainly not the best at explaining technique, but I seem to recall a fluff feature on jump take-offs and he said that the first triple most skaters do is the salchow because the feet begin far apart and bringing the free leg in helps with the rotation.

    But once the timing for a triple jump is established the toe loop seems to be easier for most skaters. In other words, the triple salchow is easier to learn than the triple toe but not the easiest to do once you've learned both.

    BTW, has there ever been an elite international skater with the toe-loop as nemisis jump? I can think of examples for all the other jumps but not the toeloop.

    IIRC outrigging the salchow has never been a downgradable feature though purists (like me) don't much like it.

    Also I seem to recall Hamilton saying that doing the throw salchow so long in pairs messed up Yamaguchi's timing for the solo salchow (more likely she just learned the timing for the throw salchow but never quite got it for the solo jump).

  13. #13
    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
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    Most skaters, at their best, rotate in the air either to the left or right. Few skaters are able to rotate in both directions. That said, the Salchow is blocked by the back inside edge in turning to best rotation side, and the skater must make use of the free leg to get the air rotation(s) in addition to muscle force. The Loop jump is not blocked by the back outside edge and just requires the skater to use more muscle force. (Both jumps are easily prerotated especially in combos or sequences)

    The use of the Toe-offs in both these jumps (the toe-loop and the flip) would normally prevent the jumps from prerotations on the ice. (The Laak toe pick take offs are not being discussed here.) I would say the Salchow and Flip are the two jumps slightly more difficult than the Loop and Toe-loop.

    .

  14. #14
    Custom Title antmanb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeff goldblum View Post
    I learned my double salchow far easier than I did the double toe loop; the latter took a long time. On the other hand, when I learned triples, the toe loop came rather easily and the salchow was a bit tougher to nail down. I think the technique changes a bit as you're doing either a double or a triple jump. Timing of jumps get adjusted in different ways. It's odd though to think of how many skaters list the triple salchow as their least favorite jump. The three that immediately come to mind are Kristi Yamaguchi, Angela Nikodinov, and Ann Patrice McDonough, perhaps Caroline Zhang as well. And I'm sure there are others.
    I've observed similar situations at my rink. Most of the skaters (particularly the girls) struggle with the double toe despite having pretty good double up through to Lutz. It seems that they just don't get the same height on the toe-loop that they do on their other doubles.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mafke View Post
    BTW, has there ever been an elite international skater with the toe-loop as nemisis jump? I can think of examples for all the other jumps but not the toeloop.
    Well i'm not sure if you might count Mao Asada in there because of her toe-axel but she has fixed that.

    The other skater that came to mind when you asked was Amber Corwin. Although she didn't skate under COP i've no doubt she'd have struggled to get the triple toe ratified given her technique issues with the jump.

    Ant
    Last edited by antmanb; 07-16-2009 at 03:12 AM. Reason: Edit - wrote the wrong thing! meant to say she had fixed it!

  15. #15
    Gadfly and Bon Vivant Mafke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by antmanb View Post
    Well i'm not sure if you might count Mao Asada in there because of her toe-axel but she has not fixed that.
    The other skater that came to mind when you asked was Amber Corwin. Although she didn't skate under COP i've no doubt she'd have struggled to get the triple toe ratified given her technique issues with the jump.
    I guess Meissner toe-axled too. But by nemisis jump I mean a jump a skater leaves out because they can't do it or they fall on it. I think CoP as it has evolved has changed the calculations somewhat with the question being less "Can I land it?" to "Can I rotate it?"

    IIRC Corwin did compete under CoP (at least when it was being beta-tested) in fact (drawing on my big store o' useless trivia) I'm pretty sure she was a surprise loser in the first ever senior CoP competition when the caller (Urmanov) downgraded most or all of her triples to doubles (the comp was won by .... Jennifer Don?)

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