I suggest re: Evan that he hasn't backed away from the jump or his feelings about it entirely and still feels it's the direction of the sport in the men's division. He backed that up by continuikng to attempt it the entire season and as we all know, but she didn't mention, he left it out of his Worlds performance on doctor's orders. That said, he has said that the determining factor for inclusion in a program is his own consistency with it, not the number of points.
Others are saying the same. Also, lately I wouldn't say even Joubert has been as consistent with the jump as earlier in his career. And some of the younger skaters coming up have included the quad successfully but as Jenny points out, if the other elemints in the program are lacking, it's not a guarantee of a medal.
I'm curious as to whether or not Lambiel and Plushenko are empahsizing the jump in their "comeback" tries.
Sure does make the men's competition the most exciting of the four disciplines. Drama indeed! Just what the sport needs.
Bring it on!
Another well-researched & thoughtful article from Jennifer, as only an elite skater such as herself can provide (btw I've enjoyed reading all of them).
Though I respect Jennifer's opinion, mine differs a bit.
To me, the Quad separates the men from the boys.
As the old proverb goes:
"to the victor go the spoils"
May the best MAN win!
I don't see why Jenny feels the need to re-open the quad debate - I understand that she only started writing recently, but this post would have been more appropriate three or four months ago, especially since it adds nothing new: Joubert thinks quads are important, some skaters win without quads, skaters should strive for well-rounded programs (actually, I think Joubert simply feels that quads are a part of a well-rounded program, and he's not alone in that). I felt some of her previous posts were more interesting and thought-provoking.
Also, her argument was not very clear. She suggests that maybe quads should be worth more, but then ends with:
By all means, then, let's remove all risk from programs so that everyone goes clean. Clearly Stephane shouldn't bother with a 3A, and neither should Patrick Chan, for whom it's still a risk. Laura Lepisto doesn't need to work on getting a triple lutz even semi-consistent: she should always leave it out! I'm sorry, but that's a terrible idea. Skaters should take risks; they should be calculated risks rather than stupid ones, but if people only focus on going clean, skating will be boring.While it might be thrilled (sic) to see a skater attempt the quad, the most important thing for a skater is consistency (sic) executing a clean program when it counts. That’s what wins championships.
Merrybari, Joubert is consistent on the quad in the sense that he always attempts quads (other than TEB SP, and that wasn't intentional), he almost always rotates them, and he rarely falls on that jump. What we did see from him in 2008-9 was some uncontrolled landings on quads (Euros LP, Worlds SP). Re Stephane and Plushy, I'm sure they'll go for quads. For one thing, they always have; also, Lambiel needs one if he can't do a 3A.
BTW, can a 3A-3T really get as much as 18.2? I think Jenny's wrong on that one.
The observation that Jenny missed which is the most important is that while the theory of cleanest programme wins is correct, the reality is - who does a clean programme these days? Not many. It just happens that the last two mens champions managed it that one time, at the same time that the guy with more points on the table because of having a quad made mistakes. But aside from that clean skates are rare under COP.
Indeed - neither Jeffrey nor Evan could have beaten some of the other top guys if they would have gone clean and skated their planned programs well; in Evan's case, even with the other guys making mistakes it was pretty close. The "do whatever you need to skate clean" tactic doesn't necessarily work, and means that a skater becomes dependent on others making mistakes or not skating the programs to their full potential.The observation that Jenny missed which is the most important is that while the theory of cleanest programme wins is correct, the reality is - who does a clean programme these days? Not many. It just happens that the last two mens champions managed it that one time, at the same time that the guy with more points on the table because of having a quad made mistakes. But aside from that clean skates are rare under COP.
Of course, clean skates with considerable technical difficulty are rare under system. But if we want people to take risks, or be creative, they should be rewarded for it. Right now I don't think the system does enough in either respect.
Buttercup - I agree that Joubert is consistent in attempting it but he's not been consistently clean in those attempts as you also stated.
From that standpoint, up until Worlds when he was forbidden to do it, Evan has been consistent in the attempt as well. Without the stress fracture he may have been more successful with it, too, last season.
So depending on what is meant by consistent, I still say there are very few, if any, these days that are delivering it consistently clean. I think it's important to keep going for it.
I also agree it's not being rewarded as highly as it should be and is being punished more severely than necessary. What's up with that?
Weighing pros and cons is a juggling act. As for Jenny sitting on the fence about it, isn't that exactly where most are sitting right now?
Last edited by merrybari; 07-28-2009 at 06:27 AM.
I stand by what I wrote: Brian attempts more quads than just about any active skater, does them in the SP and the LP, and though his quads aren't as pretty as some skaters', he normally doesn't fall or UR. As I wrote, when Joubert has quad problems, it's usually an uncontrolled landing, which isn't as bad as some mistakes. Brian's been doing quads for many years, so it's no surprise he's relatively good at it.
Evan has had more UR calls on his quad attempts, it's not as consistent for him, he doesn't do them in his LPs on a regular basis, and rarely attempts quads in the SP - this was true even before 2009 Worlds. He's more prone to URs than Joubert in general; Brian's main technique issue is lipping.
Brian Joubert, Yannick Ponsero, Patrick Chan, Nobunari Oda, Evan Lysacek - they have all expressed opinions on the matter; strong opinions, in some cases. And they stand to lose a lot more than Jenny does for doing so, because it can affect the way they are perceived by judges and fans. Quite a few journalists have also weighed in. What's the point of writing a column if you're not adding anything new and not committing to anything?As for Jenny sitting on the fence about it, isn't that exactly where most are sitting right now?
I know, the unequal GOE thing makes no sense to me. If the system is going to punish bad execution more than for other jumps, it should reward good execution on the same scale. BTW, had that been the case, Yannick Ponsero would've medalled at Euros.I also agree it's not being rewarded as highly as it should be and is being punished more severely than necessary. What's up with that?
Now that we have found something to agree about, let's go argue about music choices .
Is there a website that has all the values for the jumps, from single toe loops up to the quad salchow? I'm curious about something.
i find her a smart woman and a good writer. tends to be pretty straightforward in expressing her opinions although she doesn't say much in this particular article.
I thought she was pretty clear in her conclusion:
At the same time, she criticizes the IJS for not making the quad worth more.I suggest skaters take the emphasis away from this one element, and instead focus on skating a balanced, sound performance –... That’s what wins championships.
She's right. Far too much emphasis on one jump. I have my own system of placing skaters in a competition I have watched. Howevever, since Joubert upped his game with a more rounded out LP in Gottenborg it was tough for me to give it to Buttle who had a better more rounded program. joubert's quad won me over. But honestly,to me it was a tie with a nod to Buttle.
Thanks Mathman. Though I've gotta say, I'm a little surprised at some of those values (taking a closer look at them)