Page 1 of 3 1 2 3 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 43

Thread: Jenny Kirk's Blog: The Quad

  1. #1
    Beliver in Sasha's Perfect Program Tinymavy15's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    LA
    Posts
    4,990

    Jenny Kirk's Blog: The Quad


  2. #2
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Posts
    820
    Quote Originally Posted by Tinymavy15 View Post
    Yes, it is!

    I suggest re: Evan that he hasn't backed away from the jump or his feelings about it entirely and still feels it's the direction of the sport in the men's division. He backed that up by continuikng to attempt it the entire season and as we all know, but she didn't mention, he left it out of his Worlds performance on doctor's orders. That said, he has said that the determining factor for inclusion in a program is his own consistency with it, not the number of points.

    Others are saying the same. Also, lately I wouldn't say even Joubert has been as consistent with the jump as earlier in his career. And some of the younger skaters coming up have included the quad successfully but as Jenny points out, if the other elemints in the program are lacking, it's not a guarantee of a medal.

    I'm curious as to whether or not Lambiel and Plushenko are empahsizing the jump in their "comeback" tries.

    Sure does make the men's competition the most exciting of the four disciplines. Drama indeed! Just what the sport needs.

    Bring it on!

  3. #3
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Posts
    4,221
    Another well-researched & thoughtful article from Jennifer, as only an elite skater such as herself can provide (btw I've enjoyed reading all of them).

    Though I respect Jennifer's opinion, mine differs a bit.

    To me, the Quad separates the men from the boys.

    As the old proverb goes:

    "to the victor go the spoils"

    May the best MAN win!

  4. #4
    Off the ice Buttercup's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Left field
    Posts
    3,438
    I don't see why Jenny feels the need to re-open the quad debate - I understand that she only started writing recently, but this post would have been more appropriate three or four months ago, especially since it adds nothing new: Joubert thinks quads are important, some skaters win without quads, skaters should strive for well-rounded programs (actually, I think Joubert simply feels that quads are a part of a well-rounded program, and he's not alone in that). I felt some of her previous posts were more interesting and thought-provoking.

    Also, her argument was not very clear. She suggests that maybe quads should be worth more, but then ends with:
    While it might be thrilled (sic) to see a skater attempt the quad, the most important thing for a skater is consistency (sic) executing a clean program when it counts. That’s what wins championships.
    By all means, then, let's remove all risk from programs so that everyone goes clean. Clearly Stephane shouldn't bother with a 3A, and neither should Patrick Chan, for whom it's still a risk. Laura Lepisto doesn't need to work on getting a triple lutz even semi-consistent: she should always leave it out! I'm sorry, but that's a terrible idea. Skaters should take risks; they should be calculated risks rather than stupid ones, but if people only focus on going clean, skating will be boring.

    Merrybari, Joubert is consistent on the quad in the sense that he always attempts quads (other than TEB SP, and that wasn't intentional), he almost always rotates them, and he rarely falls on that jump. What we did see from him in 2008-9 was some uncontrolled landings on quads (Euros LP, Worlds SP). Re Stephane and Plushy, I'm sure they'll go for quads. For one thing, they always have; also, Lambiel needs one if he can't do a 3A.

    BTW, can a 3A-3T really get as much as 18.2? I think Jenny's wrong on that one.

  5. #5
    Custom Title antmanb's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    UK - Manchester
    Posts
    4,913
    Quote Originally Posted by Buttercup View Post
    Also, her argument was not very clear. She suggests that maybe quads should be worth more, but then ends with: While it might be thrilled (sic) to see a skater attempt the quad, the most important thing for a skater is consistency (sic) executing a clean program when it counts. That’s what wins championships.
    I agree I think she well and truly sat on the fence and didn't really come down one way or the other.

    Quote Originally Posted by Buttercup View Post
    By all means, then, let's remove all risk from programs so that everyone goes clean. Clearly Stephane shouldn't bother with a 3A, and neither should Patrick Chan, for whom it's still a risk. Laura Lepisto doesn't need to work on getting a triple lutz even semi-consistent: she should always leave it out! I'm sorry, but that's a terrible idea. Skaters should take risks; they should be calculated risks rather than stupid ones, but if people only focus on going clean, skating will be boring.
    I think you're making a leap from Jenny's article that she herself didn't make though. She did not say anywhere that all risk should be removed from a programme. She actually said very little that we don't already know - a clean programme will rule over an error filled programme. That surely is right. Has to be right. It's not about not ever attempting something you struggle with it's about trying to go clean. All of the skaters you mentioned have more success than not in practice with the jumps you mentioned so they have to include them in their programmes inorder to get come competition mileage out them. remember they've been doing this since they first competed as kids and tired a 1Lz/1Lp for the first time. This is what they do.

    The observation that Jenny missed which is the most important is that while the theory of cleanest programme wins is correct, the reality is - who does a clean programme these days? Not many. It just happens that the last two mens champions managed it that one time, at the same time that the guy with more points on the table because of having a quad made mistakes. But aside from that clean skates are rare under COP.

    Quote Originally Posted by Buttercup View Post
    BTW, can a 3A-3T really get as much as 18.2? I think Jenny's wrong on that one.
    No i think she got that wrong. The base value for a 3A+3T is 12.2 she's added 6 points to it thinking that +3 GOE across the board gets you two lots of three points (one fo the toe-loop and one for the axel) when in reality it's just the one hardest (i think) jump GOE that gets added so the most you could actually score is 15.2.

    Ant

  6. #6
    Off the ice Buttercup's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Left field
    Posts
    3,438
    Quote Originally Posted by antmanb View Post
    I agree I think she well and truly sat on the fence and didn't really come down one way or the other.

    I think you're making a leap from Jenny's article that she herself didn't make though.
    Obviously I was exaggerating . Really, this was not one of Jenny's better efforts - as we both noted, she could have done a better job of stating her argument (if she had one - she was firmly on that fence). There were also errors and omissions, and some proof-reading wouldn't have gone amiss.
    The observation that Jenny missed which is the most important is that while the theory of cleanest programme wins is correct, the reality is - who does a clean programme these days? Not many. It just happens that the last two mens champions managed it that one time, at the same time that the guy with more points on the table because of having a quad made mistakes. But aside from that clean skates are rare under COP.
    Indeed - neither Jeffrey nor Evan could have beaten some of the other top guys if they would have gone clean and skated their planned programs well; in Evan's case, even with the other guys making mistakes it was pretty close. The "do whatever you need to skate clean" tactic doesn't necessarily work, and means that a skater becomes dependent on others making mistakes or not skating the programs to their full potential.

    Of course, clean skates with considerable technical difficulty are rare under system. But if we want people to take risks, or be creative, they should be rewarded for it. Right now I don't think the system does enough in either respect.

  7. #7
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Posts
    820
    Buttercup - I agree that Joubert is consistent in attempting it but he's not been consistently clean in those attempts as you also stated.

    From that standpoint, up until Worlds when he was forbidden to do it, Evan has been consistent in the attempt as well. Without the stress fracture he may have been more successful with it, too, last season.

    So depending on what is meant by consistent, I still say there are very few, if any, these days that are delivering it consistently clean. I think it's important to keep going for it.

    I also agree it's not being rewarded as highly as it should be and is being punished more severely than necessary. What's up with that?

    Weighing pros and cons is a juggling act. As for Jenny sitting on the fence about it, isn't that exactly where most are sitting right now?
    Last edited by merrybari; 07-28-2009 at 06:27 AM.

  8. #8
    Off the ice Buttercup's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Left field
    Posts
    3,438
    Quote Originally Posted by merrybari View Post
    Joubert is consistent in attempting it but he's not been consistently clean in those attempts as you also stated.

    From that standpoint, up until Worlds when he was forbidden to do it, Evan has been consistent in the attempt as well. Without the stress fracture he may have been more successful with it, too, last season.
    OK, I understand and respect that you're a fan of Evan, but you don't have to defend him against everything, and this one is really a stretch .

    I stand by what I wrote: Brian attempts more quads than just about any active skater, does them in the SP and the LP, and though his quads aren't as pretty as some skaters', he normally doesn't fall or UR. As I wrote, when Joubert has quad problems, it's usually an uncontrolled landing, which isn't as bad as some mistakes. Brian's been doing quads for many years, so it's no surprise he's relatively good at it.

    Evan has had more UR calls on his quad attempts, it's not as consistent for him, he doesn't do them in his LPs on a regular basis, and rarely attempts quads in the SP - this was true even before 2009 Worlds. He's more prone to URs than Joubert in general; Brian's main technique issue is lipping.

    As for Jenny sitting on the fence about it, isn't that exactly where most are sitting right now?
    Brian Joubert, Yannick Ponsero, Patrick Chan, Nobunari Oda, Evan Lysacek - they have all expressed opinions on the matter; strong opinions, in some cases. And they stand to lose a lot more than Jenny does for doing so, because it can affect the way they are perceived by judges and fans. Quite a few journalists have also weighed in. What's the point of writing a column if you're not adding anything new and not committing to anything?

    I also agree it's not being rewarded as highly as it should be and is being punished more severely than necessary. What's up with that?
    I know, the unequal GOE thing makes no sense to me. If the system is going to punish bad execution more than for other jumps, it should reward good execution on the same scale. BTW, had that been the case, Yannick Ponsero would've medalled at Euros.

    Now that we have found something to agree about, let's go argue about music choices .

  9. #9
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    5,609
    Is there a website that has all the values for the jumps, from single toe loops up to the quad salchow? I'm curious about something.

  10. #10
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Detroit, Michigan
    Posts
    28,657

  11. #11
    Custom Title antmanb's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    UK - Manchester
    Posts
    4,913
    Quote Originally Posted by merrybari View Post
    Weighing pros and cons is a juggling act. As for Jenny sitting on the fence about it, isn't that exactly where most are sitting right now?
    Most aren't writing columns about it though, so to not give an opinion one way or the other about the subject matter leaves you wondering why she bothered dealing with the topic at all. I think a lot of her previous coumns have been great at "blowing the lid" off some topics that are taboo in skating and she has provided insight into the tpoics and most importantly her own opinion as a high level skater. This article was pretty blah really, maybe she'd have had more of an opinion if she'd tackled something she has epxerience of. Since the quad is in the men's arena maybe she should have talked about the 3/3?

    Ant

  12. #12
    Dreaming and dancing Bennett's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Watching the sunset
    Posts
    2,793
    i find her a smart woman and a good writer. tends to be pretty straightforward in expressing her opinions although she doesn't say much in this particular article.

  13. #13
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Detroit, Michigan
    Posts
    28,657
    I thought she was pretty clear in her conclusion:

    I suggest skaters take the emphasis away from this one element, and instead focus on skating a balanced, sound performance –... That’s what wins championships.
    At the same time, she criticizes the IJS for not making the quad worth more.

  14. #14
    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    New York City
    Posts
    20,185
    She's right. Far too much emphasis on one jump. I have my own system of placing skaters in a competition I have watched. Howevever, since Joubert upped his game with a more rounded out LP in Gottenborg it was tough for me to give it to Buttle who had a better more rounded program. joubert's quad won me over. But honestly,to me it was a tie with a nod to Buttle.

  15. #15
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    5,609
    Thanks Mathman. Though I've gotta say, I'm a little surprised at some of those values (taking a closer look at them)

Page 1 of 3 1 2 3 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •