РЮРЮ @ http://plushwinner.ru/forum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=813&start=600
Especially this part (sorry everyone, it's in russian)
Especially this part (sorry everyone, it's in russian)
Patrick Chan Landing the Quad
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Surely a matter of opinion. To me, the scores say other wise.
2009 Top 5: 242.23; 237.58; 235.97; 231.71; 226.97
2008 top 5: 245.17; 231.22; 221.84; 220.11; 217.88
2007 Top 5: (the first year without qualifying round):
240.85; 237.95; 233.35; 226.25; 222.18
In only two instances were scores for each place higher than in 2009
1) 1st place in '08 and 2) 2nd place in '07
2008: 2nd place finisher and below would've been lower than 4th in 2009; 3rd place finisher and below would've been lower than 5th in 2009.
2007: 1st place would've finished 2nd in 2009; 4th place would've been below 5th in 2009.
In neither season were the scores reflective of more strength than in 2009.
Of the past season "big names?"
Joubert WAS there and struggled, Takahashi didn't medal in 2008; Weir did finish 3rd in '08 but didn't even qualify this year; Lambiel took 3rd in 2007 and struggled after that. Buttle had his struggles in his 2007-2008 Championship season just as Evan did in his 2008-09 World championship season. Even the big names struggle at times - they all do.
As for Evan fans "pretending" he had a great season, we don't have to "pretend" anything. Admittedly he had a rough start to his season, with disappointing results. But he persevered, never quit, and triumphed at the end with a score that is second only to Buttle in '08 for the past three seasons of World Champs. To me that's a successful season by any standard and makes him as much a contender as any of his current competitors who have stayed the course or the comebackers trying for the Olympics one more time.
Quad or no quad, two clean, balanced performances by ANY of the top contenders in the field in Vancouver should take home the hardware.
Just who those contenders are is a matter of personal opinion and that's what makes it so interesting and uncertain.
Bring it on!! and may the best skater of the day win!
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- Jun 5, 2009
I hope so too :thumbsup: We'll see in less than a month, in Finlandia Trophy, how Daisuke's doing. I missed him too, although 'missed' is too light of a word in my case. The mens just wasn't the same without him.
- Joined
- Oct 20, 2006
This kind of comparison doesn't mean much because the inconsistency on scoring between the competitions in CoP, not to mention that the scores have inflated year after year.
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- Joined
- Mar 25, 2008
Merrybari, I realize you're a big Evan fan, and I agree with you to the extent that Evan Lysacek, as one of the few male skaters who is not a headcase, should not be underestimated. In fact I'll start with the points on which we agree: make fun of his GP performances, people, but Lysacek was the only skater who medalled at every event he entered in 2008-9. All of them. Chan screwed up at the GPF and frankly got a lot of help from the judges at the WTT. Joubert performed badly at TEB (though it's his only off the podium finish since the 2006 Olympics). Everyone had up and down seasons.
Evan lands his jumps and usually sticks to his plan. He doesn't calculate as he goes, he doesn't Zayak, he doesn't think that one clean 3A entitles him to top scores. He was one of the few men who did not suck at the Torino LP
. For that, and for being the 2009 World Champion, he deserves to be considered a medal contender for Vancouver, though I stand by my previous post - he'll need to be lucky.Because Evan Lysacek is not a great skater. He's a good skater and, as pointed out, one of the few consistently good skaters around. But he has wonky jump technique which leads to UR calls and lower GOEs, his music choices do not play to his strengths, he is not as elegant, as musical or as graceful as most of the other contenders, and his quad has been MIA for some time now. He needs quite a few people to make mistakes or to be out with an injury in order to have a real chance.
In LA the stars aligned for Lysacek, but regardless of the score, it was not the strongest field we've seen in recent years. The scores were high because skaters have learned how to play the CoP game (some would say it's code whoring) and because the judges have been kinder in recent years as they become accustomed to the system. Also, what Jenny said about different panels scoring differently - or is 4CC the best event every year?
Other than Evan, Contesti and Denis Ten, people did not skate as well as they could in LA, the standard wasn't as high as in 2006 (Evan's bronze from that year is really impressive IMO) and the podium wasn't as good as the 2007 one, which had two of the best skaters of the decade and Dai, who is amazingly talented. We all know who wasn't on the podium that year.
I do agree that the whole "Plushy, Dai and Lambiel will beat everyone" thing is getting tired. They might all end up on the podium; they could all struggle; Lambiel may decide that he doesn't feel like competing after all. They are unknown factors, and I don't think they should be considered likelier winners than, say, Joubert, Chan, or Verner if he ever gets his act together (oh please Tomas, do so). There are a lot of guys who could medal and I don't think there really is a front runner at this point like Plushy in 2006 or Plush/Yags in 2002.
Indeed :agree:. Though I know who I want that best skater to be
.It will lose a lot more than 200 posts. It's the most OT thread I've seen on any forum.if we take out all the posts from Plushenko thread and put into relevant threads, Plushenko thread might lose 200 posts. Well, even though Plushenko thread "over scored" at GS, it is still the gold winner without the irrelavent so far.
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- Joined
- Jun 3, 2008
This is not from his "biggest" fans
...Plushwinner is a fan forum of Plushy???Since WHEN?The tilte of the forum is pure irony...it is a bashing forum, full of yellow media about his private life..could never read it..sorry:boohoo:this is going nowhere, lets just see how Plush will manage this season ourselves
May I say something in defence of the said forum. Plushwinner, IMO, is run by people who seem to really care about Zhenya. I go there from time to time, because they post news, like articles, interviews, videos, pics - on many other skaters, and not just Russian skaters. The place is very informative. I'm not a member, I'm a regular lurker there.
But they don't buy BS and they don't gush, they are in touch with reality, see things as they are. The reason why they re-post stuff from the so called yellow media, is because Zhenya is friends with yellow media. He himself gives those silly interviews and poses for those tasteless pics, because, well, he's a media who.
I believe though, this board's guidelines prohibit discussions reg other boards and forums.
Merrybari, I realize you're a big Evan fan, and I agree with you to the extent that Evan Lysacek, as one of the few male skaters who is not a headcase, should not be underestimated. In fact I'll start with the points on which we agree: make fun of his GP performances, people, but Lysacek was the only skater who medalled at every event he entered in 2008-9. All of them. Chan screwed up at the GPF and frankly got a lot of help from the judges at the WTT. Joubert performed badly at TEB (though it's his only off the podium finish since the 2006 Olympics). Everyone had up and down seasons.
Evan lands his jumps and usually sticks to his plan. He doesn't calculate as he goes, he doesn't Zayak, he doesn't think that one clean 3A entitles him to top scores. He was one of the few men who did not suck at the Torino LP
Because Evan Lysacek is not a great skater. He's a good skater and, as pointed out, one of the few consistently good skaters around. But he has wonky jump technique which leads to UR calls and lower GOEs, his music choices do not play to his strengths, he is not as elegant, as musical or as graceful as most of the other contenders, and his quad has been MIA for some time now. He needs quite a few people to make mistakes or to be out with an injury in order to have a real chance.
In LA the stars aligned for Lysacek, but regardless of the score, it was not the strongest field we've seen in recent years. The scores were high because skaters have learned how to play the CoP game (some would say it's code whoring) and because the judges have been kinder in recent years as they become accustomed to the system. Also, what Jenny said about different panels scoring differently - or is 4CC the best event every year?
Other than Evan, Contesti and Denis Ten, people did not skate as well as they could in LA, the standard wasn't as high as in 2006 (Evan's bronze from that year is really impressive IMO) and the podium wasn't as good as the 2007 one, which had two of the best skaters of the decade and Dai, who is amazingly talented. We all know who wasn't on the podium that year.
I do agree that the whole "Plushy, Dai and Lambiel will beat everyone" thing is getting tired. They might all end up on the podium; they could all struggle; Lambiel may decide that he doesn't feel like competing after all. They are unknown factors, and I don't think they should be considered likelier winners than, say, Joubert, Chan, or Verner if he ever gets his act together (oh please Tomas, do so). There are a lot of guys who could medal and I don't think there really is a front runner at this point like Plushy in 2006 or Plush/Yags in 2002.
Indeed :agree:. Though I know who I want that best skater to be
It will lose a lot more than 200 posts. It's the most OT thread I've seen on any forum.
So you've figured out I'm a big Evan fan.
Wonder what gave me away? Seriously, though, I'm not blind to his faults either. One of the things that makes me a fan is that he never makes excuses, his work ethic, and his dogged determination to learn and to improve. I think he's succeeding and coming into his own.
ITA with your assessment re: the inconsistency of the CoP. They are wildly erratic from one event to another, from one season to another and from one panel to another. Without checking the exact numbers, IIRC, the top score at this year's Skate Canada for instance wouldn't have come close to meeting the top scores at some of the others. That said, the points are the only "subjective" - haha - way to measure the field, which is why I culled scores to substantiate my points in the only way I could see possible.
I also agree that the stars lined up for Evan in LA - but then, imo, that's been the case for all winners so is not unique. I also think luck has played a part for others as well.
I think Evan has been building skills as he goes along and is tapping the more lyrical side as well as working on improving technique. I think it's safe to say last year saw him re-vamping/reinventing a bit, even to the point where he said TT took his jumps back to basics. Some of the difficulties that popped up I think were a result of getting comfortable with the "new". It's always difficult to retrain muscle memory.
IIRC Lambiel "lost" his 3A for a time and had to go back to the drawing board with it.
Scores should get higher not only because the skaters are learning how to work the system but also because they are working to be better at their craft, all of them.
It's a pleasure sharing thoughts with you.
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Well, before we completely hijack this thread (I hope Patrick Chan doesn't read it ), I'd like to say that, IMO, it's great for a skater to have all kinds of fans, that is, those who gush 'This is the best thing I've ever seen!', as well as those downers who always complain 'Nope, still not good, try harder'. It brings a healthy balance into the fave's self image. JMHO.
), I'd like to say that, IMO, it's great for a skater to have all kinds of fans, that is, those who gush 'This is the best thing I've ever seen!', as well as those downers who always complain 'Nope, still not good, try harder'. It brings a healthy balance into the fave's self image. JMHO.
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- Jun 3, 2008
I can read again all Plushy thread but I m pretty sure I ve never said he is perfect, yet I m a a big fan. Skaters should have all kinds of fans, i totally agree:yes: but calling a skater elephant on ice, repulsive and disgusting, and putting green emoticons all over is not much of a healthy image and certainly not a fan, just my opinion.
I just prefer to debate here about the mullet, arm flails and bad sit spin.
I just prefer to debate here about the mullet, arm flails and bad sit spin.
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- Sep 13, 2009
I have never visited the plushwinner forum, should I? I'm a fan of Zhenya's, btw.
Oh and not to be totally OT, I d love Patrick Chan a lot. From the newbies, he's my favourite, by far. I'm absolutely certain he will win a lot of medals very soon.
Oh and not to be totally OT, I d love Patrick Chan a lot. From the newbies, he's my favourite, by far. I'm absolutely certain he will win a lot of medals very soon.
Was thinking the same thing myself. It's fascinating how topics migrate and drift away from the original.
Have to go back and ask myself - now, where was I?
Balance is good in all things. :agree: Quads are important - and I hope Patrick - and all the others - are successful with them. That said, I also don't think the whole program/competition should revolve around them to the exclusion of the many other aspects that go into a full performance. I think that's something most of us agree with.
The amount of work that goes into a career is ming boggling. I applaud those who are able to keep the faith and the fire and put everything they have into it. May they all skate great!
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IMO, 2008 Worlds is the weakest in the past Olympic cycle, regardless of the lineup, if you look at the actual performances that have been delivered, the men's competition was very lacklustre overall except Jeff.
With or without the quad, Patrick will be a very strong medal contender in the Olympics, I still think he'll score higher without the quad (if he can master all the 3As). But everybody else must include at least one quad to challenge the podium.
With or without the quad, Patrick will be a very strong medal contender in the Olympics, I still think he'll score higher without the quad (if he can master all the 3As). But everybody else must include at least one quad to challenge the podium.
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- Jun 5, 2009
Please, do not take them as an example of objectivity towards Plushenko's - It was "once upon a time" was a forum dedicated to him... this is now "Joubert's forum" - almost all the members there are now avatars with him
P.S. I do not see differences between thier topic about Plushy, and the "yellow press", which they transfers there in the enormous quantities. :frown2:
P.S.S. sorry everyone for OFF post, but I had to clarify some things
I would agree abut the 2008 Worlds being the weakest in this cycle but must say I'm not convinced Patrick can score higher without the quad than others with it. He said himself that Worlds was a reality check for him which leads me to believe he even might think some of his early season scores were a bit inflated.
It goes without saying - but I'll say in anyway
- to challenge the podium the "contenders" all need to bring their A games to the ice in both programs. Wouldn't it be something if they all did? It promises to be a most engaging competition regardless as there is no one who is a shoo in. All of them have beaten all the others at one time or another. Bring it on!- Joined
- Dec 13, 2005
http://www.thestar.com/sports/olympics/article/708435--patrick-chan-ice-prince
New Patrick article. Says he is unlikely to continue past 2010. While I am disappointed to hear this I understand why he would want to leave skating and have experiences such as school - and parties and girls
New Patrick article. Says he is unlikely to continue past 2010. While I am disappointed to hear this I understand why he would want to leave skating and have experiences such as school - and parties and girls
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- Mar 25, 2008
As usual:
Is this now obligatory in all Canadian press coverage of Chan? Do reporters have it as auto-text? Chan didn't even skate that well at Worlds. It was actually a fun interview, why go there? I bet even Patrick has had enough of it.
It is possible to do both - as the large number of entries at the Universiade shows. There are a lot of good skaters who are also students: Carolina Kostner, Tomas Verner, Kimmie Meissner, Kiira Korpi, Yannick Ponsero, Daisuke Takahashi and Nathalie Pechalat (AFAIK, the last two are graduate students) are just a few examples. Aren't a bunch of the Michigan-based skaters (e.g. Evan Bates, Charlie White, Emily Samuelson) taking courses at the University of Michigan? I can see someone like Rachael Flatt, whose academic goals are very ambitious, giving up skating altogether. But it's certainly possible to combine one's athletic career with university studies.New Patrick article. Says he is unlikely to continue past 2010. While I am disappointed to hear this I understand why he would want to leave skating and have experiences such as school - and parties and girls
Of course, once someone has had enough of the sport, there's no point in staying. But at the age of 18? I'm kind of surprised.
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