Jennifer Kirk - A federation doesn't "own" it's athletes

sillylionlove · Aug 18, 2009

Here is the link to another great article by Jennifer Kirk. She talks about Kaitlyn Weaver and Morgan Matthews.

http://trueslant.com/jenniferkirk/2009/08/18/a-federation-doesnt-own-its-athletes/#more-382

I have to say that I just love her articles!!

antmanb · Aug 19, 2009

Am i remembering correctly though that it was Matthews and Zavozin that put in a comlpanit about the petition to have Tanith's citizenship expediated so that they could skate in SLC?

If that was then seems a little like karma coming to bite her on the ***!

Ant

layman · Aug 19, 2009

antmanb said:
Am i remembering correctly though that it was Matthews and Zavozin that put in a comlpanit about the petition to have Tanith's citizenship expediated so that they could skate in SLC?

If that was then seems a little like karma coming to bite her on the ***!

Ant

Your wrong. It was Loren Galler-Rabinowitz and her partner David Mitchell who petitioned against Tanith's citizenship.

I have been waiting for someone in the skating world to speak out on this issue for a long time. Way to go Jenny Kirk! Such a brave move to speak out against this kind of injustice and caprice.

antmanb · Aug 19, 2009

layman said:
Your wrong. It was Loren Galler-Rabinowitz and her partner David Mitchell who petitioned against Tanith's citizenship.

I'm sorry you're absolutely right it was Rabinowitz & Mitchell I was thinking of, apologies.

Ant

Pixie Cut · Aug 19, 2009

layman said:
It was Loren Galler-Rabinowitz and her partner David Mitchell who petitioned against Tanith's citizenship.

Actually, it was Mitchell's mother.

attyfan · Aug 19, 2009

She makes good points -- I wonder if the USFS will ever issue a statement on the subject. I thought indentured servitude was illegal, anyway.

Tinymavy15 · Aug 19, 2009

As if finding a good partner is not hard enough. USFSA really messsed that one up. What is the point of "holding on" to a single ice dancer.

layman · Aug 19, 2009

Pixie Cut said:
Actually, it was Mitchell's mother.

True...and her actions were aimed just as much at preventing Max Zavozin obtaining American citizenship as they were at preventing Tanith Belbin from obtaining citizenship.

Both teams were in contention with her son's team for Olympic spots.

Tonichelle · Aug 20, 2009

yeah M/Z benefitted from Tanith's petition as they were also waiting for Z's citizenship to go through, IIRC.

life684 · Aug 20, 2009

i couldn't believe the argument of USFS especially considering the fact that they probably have had more athletes trained by other federation compete for them. I suppose they mean skater like Belbin, Petrukov, Zavozin..all paid back the money to their respective federations.

The same argument can be used for coaches as well most of them where funded by federation and very high number of them left their respective federation in search of better conditions(including $). I hope USFS will pay back these federation for training these coaches as well. the whole argument look slightly communist to me.

The argument of USFS can be used in wide variety of areas including education. In developing countries education is mostly subsidised by government and if you follow USFS, when a trained individual leaves the country a huge bill should be handed out to each individual a the airport for the amount the Govt. has spent.(then developing countries like India will never complain of brain drain )

Pixie Cut · Aug 20, 2009

life684 said:
i couldn't believe the argument of USFS especially considering the fact that they probably have had more athletes trained by other federation compete for them. I suppose they mean skater like Belbin, Petrukov, Zavozin..all paid back the money to their respective federations.

The only one of these three possibly relevant is Petukhov and I believe there was a little tussle to get him released. Belbin was a novice level skater when she left Canada and I believe the funding for her training came totally from her parents. Zavozin never competed in Russia and the only trainers he had were his parents.

This issue has complex angles that need to be explored before judgment is passed.

sashaisgreat · Aug 20, 2009

Actually, the Matthews and Belbins worked together to get citizenship. They pooled their resources in the fall of 2005 and that is when things really got moving!

ImaginaryPogue · Aug 20, 2009

Pixie Cut said:
The only one of these three possibly relevant is Petukhov and I believe there was a little tussle to get him released. Belbin was a novice level skater when she left Canada and I believe the funding for her training came totally from her parents. Zavozin never competed in Russia and the only trainers he had were his parents.

This issue has complex angles that need to be explored before judgment is passed.

Under what circumstances do you believe a federation withholding release is justified?

Pixie Cut · Aug 21, 2009

sashaisgreat said:
Actually, the Matthews and Belbins worked together to get citizenship. They pooled their resources in the fall of 2005 and that is when things really got moving!

Really? As I recall a legal team did this pro bono and Zavozin simply piggy backed the work being done for Belbin.

Under what circumstances do you believe a federation withholding release is justified?

It may never be, but I'm not going to pass judgment until I know ALL the facts. There may have been certain privileges in terms of practice and training facilities or sponsorship dollars made based on promises of loyalty from a skater. I repeat again, there are complex situations and I can't pass judgment on emotion. I need all the facts first.

sashaisgreat · Aug 21, 2009

I was at the same rink as M/Z at the time. The Belbin's were working from their end and the Matthews at the other. When the bill fell through the first time, they joined forces. Living in different states, they brought more congressmen and senators to the table. Matthews was also working with senator Clinton because she was Skating Club of New York (ironic since that is who Mitchell wrote) . I sat by Mr. Matthews several times at the rink when he was on the phone with either Mr. Belbin or the Belbin's lawyer. Zavozin also had his lawyer in the mix as well.
So basically, Tanith's team got the ball rolling but Matthews.team jumped in and helped to get the bill passed.

Tammi · Aug 22, 2009

In regards to USFS, could it be as simple as a "noncompete" that you see in many business situations? The USFS's business is winning medals and keeping high numbers of qualifying spots. If they have someone who they consider a top skater and therefore a threat as a competitor for another country, they probably are going to use everything within their means to make a release difficult. In Matthews case, when she skated with Zavozin, they were two-time medalists at Junior Worlds, gold medalists in JGP's and the final, plus gold medalists at Four Continents, so definitely a threat to US medals if she skated for another country. Up until recently, I believe the ISU also had much stricter rules when it came to changing country representation. I don't remember the specifics for the Matthews/Gislason partnership, but I think she would have been released by the USFS at the end of 2009, although I don't know where they stood on the process of acquiring Canadian citizenship. Based on recent skating headlines, an Azerbaijan citizenship is easier to obtain and then a USFS release isn't even necessary

.

I'm not really sure where I stand on the subject, but as someone else pointed out, I also don't know all the specifics behind each situation. If I look at USFS simply as a business entity, then I can understand how they would consider a noncompete for a certain amount of time. That could be 1 - 2 years, again maybe depending on funding or the overall competitive threat that this particular athlete poses. I would think the rule is covered in the bylaws somewhere?? No one but the parties directly involved know what was discussed though and whether they approached USFS officials beforehand to find out what they may be looking at in terms of limitations.

snowflake · Aug 23, 2009

This reminds me of Niklas Hogner SWE, who split with partner Pylkina SWE after competing together for three years. Niklas felt low because he had put a lot of work into pair skating. He wanted a new partner and found Julia Vlassov US, former world junior champion 2006(with Drew Meekins). This article from December 12th 2007 tells how they train together 5-6 hours a day and find it working well. They have submitted an application to the US federation for Julia to compete for Sweden. The goal was to compete in WC in Göteborg 2008.

The US federation said no. I don't know the reason or the background, but I suppose it was a money issue and/or fright for a competing pair. AFAIK neither Julia nor Niklas has found another partner and none of them are now skating competitively? I find this story irritating and a waste of skating skills.

I saw in another thread that a Swedish lady icedancer tries out with a Russian man. Hope it will work well for them.

How hard it must be for a pair/icedance skater to find the right partner.

sashaisgreat · Aug 23, 2009

I think I heard that Julia was skating on cruise ships or Disney but I could be wrong.

antmanb · Aug 24, 2009

Tammi said:
In regards to USFS, could it be as simple as a "noncompete" that you see in many business situations?

Except for the fact that the skaters are not employees of the USFSA so the concept of non compete doesn't really work here. Do skaters sign any contracts with the USFSA? I would have thought that the only "contractual" obligations would be any membership rules and i doubt that they would include non compete clauses/restrcitive covenants.

Ant

Tammi · Aug 24, 2009

antmanb said:
Do skaters sign any contracts with the USFSA? I would have thought that the only "contractual" obligations would be any membership rules and i doubt that they would include non compete clauses/restrcitive covenants.

Not sure if they'd be considered "contracts" or "agreements", but yes, when a Team USA spot is offered, the skaters must sign an acceptance contract. Part of the wording does include that USFS is not obligated to immediately release any skater to another ISU country if that skater competed internationally for the US (that's where I drew the comparison to a business's non-compete). There must be something else as well that details the terms of a release. It may be a following of the ISU guidelines, which I believe before the recent changes, was sitting out of international competition for 2 years.

Jennifer Kirk - A federation doesn't "own" it's athletes

sillylionlove

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