Ladies LP | Page 24 | Golden Skate

Ladies LP

skatingbc

Final Flight
Joined
Jan 2, 2009
Poor Mao & the other ladies, there's no way they can win, Yuna only has to skate her SP like she did yesterday & she's already won, LP doesn't matter. In this new system, once you've built a substantial lead in the SP, LP no longer matters.

I think S/S proved that that is not entirely true.
 

skatingbc

Final Flight
Joined
Jan 2, 2009
Neither of them Michelle. Neither of them Sasha, Irina, or Tara.

Why do Mao or Yuna need to be Sasha, Irina, Tara or Michelle? I think they are doing a pretty good job being Mao and Yuna. They both are unique and bring their own personalities and strengths to the ice.
 

evangeline

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 7, 2007
Oh Evangeline, yes I can say that and yes I did. Daniel, I am glad you are a happy camper in Spain and you are enjoying figure skating as it currently exists, but it is a niche sport in decline in both the United States and in Europe. The quality of skating and the quality of the programs are in decline. Viewership has tanked. It is a sport in trouble. Daniel, most of us don't get Korean t.v. stations (or want to for that matter). Since you don't live in the U.S. it's kind of a moot point from your persepctive don't you think?

Did you just call Lambiel's Poeta and Yu-Na's Danse Macabre "unmemorable programs with monotone, uninspiring music and flailing-arms choreography"?

:eek::eek::eek:

Sorry, had to get that out of my system. ;)

But you have to realize that this only illustrates the subjectivity of this whole thing. You may think that all skaters today have horrible programs, but can't you argue that the same can be said of Michelle's programs? I personally love many of Michelle's programs, but I'm sure there's some people who think they are unmemorable programs with monotone, uninspiring music and flailing-arms choreography especially if you look at her programs after 2002 and are instead truly touched by Yu-Na's and Mao's programs. The same can be said for Sasha, Irina and Tara.

Out of curiosity, if you think Lambiel's Poeta and Yu-Na's Danse Macabre are that mediocre, can you give specific examples of programs you think are very good?
 

Daniel5555

On the Ice
Joined
Jan 27, 2009
kyla2
I know that it's in decline. But it's in decline in some places, in others it's rising. The quality of programs is a very subjective thing. I've asked different people about this and they said that in their opinion the difficulty of elements and overall quality increased. I think that the programs changed and it's really difficult to perform them nowadays.

The same with the connection with audience. I perfectly understand that is very hard to connect with a skater you don't really know and don't follow. But I think you don't give them a chance either.

Since you don't live in the U.S. it's kind of a moot point from your persepctive don't you think?
Maybe, but sometimes you can see better from the outside. It's just impossible that skaters with no connection and with plain programs would achieve such a big popularity, one in a country with a lot of skating history like Japan and other in a country with almost no skating history. It's impossible.
And at the same time there are a bunch of experts who are praising them. For example, Tarasova clearly thinks that Mao is one the best skaters of all time, which I won't question here. Michelle Kwan who is a legendary skater, really likes Yuna Kim. It would be too long to name all commentators, experts and coaches who said very good things about them. Even including people like Phillip Hersh. Don't you think if they really were so bad, all those people would notice it as well?
 

gourry

Final Flight
Joined
Nov 7, 2007
Wow. For a moment I thought I'm in the wrong thread.:p This sure looks like a different thread from what I left last night.:laugh:

Just wanted to make a quick comment re: the...uh..."sunflower incident" (yikes)

Please let's not take this to ridiculous heights. Kim Yu-Na herself clarified in an interview today:
"I think there was a cavity on the ice - the blade caught it as I went into the three-turn, speeding it up. I lost the timing, so gave up on the jump because I felt that I would probably fall."
And she added:
"It was my mistake, and I don't want to make any excuses. I don't like to place blame."

If you've ever gone skiing or skating (mostly the former for me, not much good at the latter unfortunately), you've probably experienced what she's talking about - catching on a pit on the snow/ice, losing control and falling. It happens. It's a freak accident, no one's fault really. (That said, of course it is important to securely wrap any gifts/flowers to be thrown onto the ice. Yukari was momentarily disrupted because the flower boy/girl/(??) had to clean up the ice, and I can imagine that if I were a skater getting ready to do my free program, I would not appreciate the distraction and the delay.)

That's what I guessed. When you skate last, the ice surface can't be good. Holes here and there, fallen beads, sometimes costume parts, furs from stuffed animals;)
But I do think one thing is very clear. WRAP YOUR FLOWERS.

I have to confess I was really surprised when I first saw the sunflowers that they even let the person bring them inside the arena.
I was at SA last year and the person wouldn't allow my rose from the enterance of the arena, which was wrapped properly by the way, saying flowers are not allowed because petals, leaves, thorns could fall on the ice and cause dangers.
Poor Yukari must have been distracted while she was waiting.

Anyway, Scott was gushing how Yuna was extremely smart to decide not to jump when she felt something was wrong. That was kind of funny.:p
 
Joined
Aug 16, 2009
Daniel, I agree with you, and you bring up an interesting point. While I love Michelle's skating and always will, there are some sterling competitors out there currently, just as there were before Michelle. Janet Lynn, John Curry, and other immortals were irreplaceable, too--but that didn't diminish the excellence of skaters who came after them, such as Michelle herself, Yagudin, and Browning. There's room for all of them in the history books and in our hearts. Similarly in tennis, Sampras and Agassi were such a tremendous pair of rivals that I thought we'd never see the like of them again, and then we got Federer and Nadal. That's the nature of athletics. Though there are fallow moments in skating (I remember a "businesslike," completely uninspiring Soviet pair who were world champions just because it was their turn--I will charitably omit their names), I don't think this is one of those droughts. YuNa is truly astounding in the way she combines jumping ability with musicality, and Asada at her best is fluid, sunny, and lyrical--with a triple axel, no less! There aren't any Americans at the top right now, but I'm sure there will be soon enough. I'm perfectly happy rooting for ladies from other countries when they're this good.
 

gourry

Final Flight
Joined
Nov 7, 2007
Daniel, I agree with you, and you bring up an interesting point. While I love Michelle's skating and always will, there are some sterling competitors out there currently, just as there were before Michelle. Janet Lynn, John Curry, and other immortals were irreplaceable, too--but that didn't diminish the excellence of skaters who came after them, such as Michelle herself, Yagudin, and Browning. There's room for all of them in the history books and in our hearts. Similarly in tennis, Sampras and Agassi were such a tremendous pair of rivals that I thought we'd never see the like of them again, and then we got Federer and Nadal. That's the nature of athletics. Though there are fallow moments in skating (I remember a "businesslike," completely uninspiring Soviet pair who were world champions just because it was their turn--I will charitably omit their names), I don't think this is one of those droughts. YuNa is truly astounding in the way she combines jumping ability with musicality, and Asada at her best is fluid, sunny, and lyrical--with a triple axel, no less! There aren't any Americans at the top right now, but I'm sure there will be soon enough. I'm perfectly happy rooting for ladies from other countries when they're this good.

:yes: ITA.
And I'm looking forward to seeing those Russian junior ladies in couple of years!
 

yangjie

On the Ice
Joined
Apr 17, 2009
kim yu-na, she always get high score not deserved to her performance.
do you guys really think her crazy high score is right?
is there anyone who questions her score?
is she so amazing so that she get the most highest score?
 

ehdtkqorl123

On the Ice
Joined
Feb 6, 2009
kim yu-na, she always get high score not deserved to her performance.
do you guys really think her crazy high score is right?
is there anyone who questions her score?
is she so amazing so that she get the most highest score?

I suggest you go back to page 5 of this thread and start reading.
 

gourry

Final Flight
Joined
Nov 7, 2007
Now that everyone is talking about Michelle, Yuna, Mao, I kind of feel this is OT but I'll post it anyway.



Are we talking about the same event:scratch: the highest of Joannie's 2A was +1.6, while Yuna's was +1.8 in LA......... I'm not going to do any comparisions, I just wanna say Joannie's jumps may have potential to be higher.........

I was saying about their worlds SP where they all do solo 2A. Joannie didn't do solo 2A in her LP.
There Yuna got +1.2, Joannie got +1.6, and Mao got +1.8. (So I was wrong about she tied Mao in GOE.)

Aren't we talking about LA? your previous example was from LA, thus I highlighted results from LA......actually Yuna's marks were not that fabulous at the beginning of last season, that's why her margins were not that high;)

Again, I was talking about worlds SP.
I brought that stats because you said this at first place:

Joannie's good technique didn't help her gain huge +GOE, however:no:

Joannie's a good jumper, even though some people seem to underestimate her, and her good technique indeed helps her gain huge +GOEs.

That was all I wanted to say on this topic.
 

gourry

Final Flight
Joined
Nov 7, 2007
Oh, by the way, is it just me or did Scott actually call Mao's flip 'lutz' today??
So what, now she LIP?:rofl:
 

harmy18

Rinkside
Joined
Jun 30, 2008
Again, I was talking about worlds SP.
I brought that stats because you said this at first place:

Are we really talking about the same event:scratch: I'm not sure if I fully understand your posted stats, just wonder how did that 6.359 ( 11.50 ) and 5.796 ( 9.80 ) happen? 3 jumps got 6.359 and 5.796 ? would you pls elaborate?
 

*Sniper*

On the Ice
Joined
Dec 17, 2006
kim yu-na, she always get high score not deserved to her performance.
do you guys really think her crazy high score is right?
is there anyone who questions her score?
is she so amazing so that she get the most highest score?

Yeah, doubts creep into my head also when she receives the scores she does and wins by such a huge margin, but my untrained eyes and basic skating knowledge tend to give in to the opinions of Scott Hamilton, Kurt Browning, Sandra Bezic, the British Euro commentators, and other slew of skating experts, who are spreading rumors around that yes, indeed, she is better than most. :party:
 

R.D.

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
I don't think many doubt that she is better.

But, and a big BUT, is she really THAT much better than everyone else? Supposedly the judges think so.

Let's see what happens with Kim, whether she can keep up the momentum or whether she will fall back down to earth (or will others rise up to her?)

Hey, maybe she'll just jump right in, win the OGM, and then retire. :chorus:
 

gourry

Final Flight
Joined
Nov 7, 2007
Are we really talking about the same event:scratch: I'm not sure if I fully understand your posted stats, just wonder how did that 6.359 ( 11.50 ) and 5.796 ( 9.80 ) happen? 3 jumps got 6.359 and 5.796 ? would you pls elaborate?



Hi I've compiled some stats from last season.
And if you don't mind, I wanna share some with you.

I dont know much about FS (always learning a lot from this board. thanx guys)
but I love to deal with numbers and that's part of my day job.

One of things I like about COP is it gives me lots of numbers.
you know, in 6.0 there were not much to analyze. Just standings.
Now I can divide and 'compare' element by element.
And that's what I've done here.
If it's ok, I wanna add stats for each element to this thread.

So, it's the first part. ... the JUMPS

I've compiled points for jumps of last season's international competitions.
Subjects are 7 GP events (including final), EC, FC, and WC.
I excluded any 'invalid' element and ladies with less than 2 events and 10 marks.
Then I averaged points and GOEs for each ladies.
And sorted that for ladies with higher average_point first.

So here's the result.
Let me explain columns (although it's pretty obvious)
I included max points beside each average values in the brackets.

It's just a data and if anyone of you find it interesting, that's good enough for me.
(Sorry for my poor english)


POINT ( max ) | GOE ( max ) | Name
6.359 ( 11.50 ) | 0.643 ( 2.0 ) | Yu-Na KIM
5.796 ( 9.80 ) | 0.408 ( 2.0 ) | Joannie ROCHETTE
5.513 ( 11.30 ) | 0.192 ( 2.0 ) | Mao ASADA
5.404 ( 9.73 ) | -0.350 ( 0.8 ) | Rachael FLATT
5.399 ( 11.80 ) | -0.007 ( 1.4 ) | Miki ANDO
5.258 ( 8.63 ) | -0.250 ( 1.2 ) | Alena LEONOVA
5.110 ( 8.20 ) | -0.307 ( 0.8 ) | Akiko SUZUKI
5.007 ( 8.30 ) | 0.144 ( 1.4 ) | Fumie SUGURI
4.945 ( 9.50 ) | -0.505 ( 0.2 ) | Caroline ZHANG
4.894 ( 9.60 ) | 0.237 ( 1.6 ) | Laura LEPISTO
4.729 ( 8.50 ) | -0.308 ( 1.0 ) | Nina PETUSHKOVA
4.647 ( 8.28 ) | -0.057 ( 1.0 ) | Yukari NAKANO
4.622 ( 8.60 ) | -0.434 ( 1.0 ) | Amelie LACOSTE
4.570 ( 11.30 ) | -0.477 ( 1.8 ) | Carolina KOSTNER

POINT ( max ) | GOE ( max ) | Name
6.359 ( 11.50 ) | 0.643 ( 2.0 ) | Yu-Na KIM
5.796 ( 9.80 ) | 0.408 ( 2.0 ) | Joannie ROCHETTE
5.513 ( 11.30 ) | 0.192 ( 2.0 ) | Mao ASADA

This is about their overall jumps, not about a specific jump. Over last season.(I mentioned so when I first quoted it.)
As you can see here, Joannie was actually the second best GOE getter last season. Wait, I just realized she is actually the second best jumper pointwise.

You said Joannie doesn't get enough GOE, so I said that is not true and used the GOEs on their 2As from LA Worlds SP(1.2 vs. 1.6) as an example because that was the first specific thing came to my mind.(Joannie getting higher GOE on jump than Yuna was quite impressive and memorable to me.)

Then, I quoted this stats to show Joannie is indeed a great jumper and the judges are aware of it and rewarding it more than you seem to think.

Okay, I'm done elaborating. Hope this is crystal clear now. I feel a bit tired.
If you visit 'Stats for ladies from 2008-2009' thread, you can see more. It's quite interesting and worth reading IMO.
 
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*Sniper*

On the Ice
Joined
Dec 17, 2006
I don't think many doubt that she is better.

But, and a big BUT, is she really THAT much better than everyone else? Supposedly the judges think so.

Let's see what happens with Kim, whether she can keep up the momentum or whether she will fall back down to earth (or will others rise up to her?)

Hey, maybe she'll just jump right in, win the OGM, and then retire. :chorus:

That's what I'm saying.
I haven't heard any former skater or commentator (whose languages I can understand) raise questions on the margins of her victories.

This problem will be easily solved when others rise to the occasion and make it more interesting.
Let's hope so.:thumbsup::biggrin:
 

bekalc

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 1, 2006
But, and a big BUT, is she really THAT much better than everyone else? Supposedly the judges think so.
.

Yu-na deserved to win by a very large margin based on the way the other people skated. Look, Mao had a bad competition. Her short program was a mess with that popped combo. She also got several downgrades in her long program. Mao's total score was in the 170's which is low for Mao.

Then there is Nakano who had several jumping issues herself. It's not like Mao skated well and Kim won by 36 points. Mao lands and rotates her jumps than a lot of that 36 points is quickly erased.

I thought Kim's PCS were a bit high in the long program. However she deserved high GOE on her jumps. And so while the score was high, it was maybe only a couple of points high.

However, may I point out that Rochette got 63 Pcs at the Japan Open. I think that the judges are also willing to give other people high PCS if they skate well.

Given how Mao is skating right now. We have to see how Miki and Joannie are scoring before we assume that Kim has "no challengers". Right now unless Mao and Kostner really step it up. I think that the Olympic podium is very likely to be Kim/Miki/Joannie. Mao will have difficulty beating MIki/Rochette if she continues to skate this way.
 
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wonderlen3000

Final Flight
Joined
Nov 8, 2008
Well let's hope Yuna retire after winning the OGM, so the rest of the world and figure skating can move on. I'm sick of hearing how great she is and don't want to see another Plusheko in ladies field. It's more exciting to watch when everyone is fighting for the gold.

At least next event will be exciting to watch.
 

bmelanie

On the Ice
Joined
Nov 16, 2008
I don't think many doubt that she is better.

But, and a big BUT, is she really THAT much better than everyone else? Supposedly the judges think so.

I think we found out from the protocols exactly why Yuna got the score she did, and why there was such a big difference between hers and everyone else's. To quickly summarize (what was discussed about twenty pages ago), Yuna received numerous high + GOEs for all her jumps, no DGs, and received high PCS (mostly in the low-mid 8s) for the intricate and difficult transitions she worked into the program. To the casual observer, yes, it may seem that her program is not that special, but just take a look at the entries she takes into her combinations (the 2A-2T-2L and the 2A-3T) and how everything leads seamlessly into something else. There are very few moments in the program when Yuna is simply standing and telegraphing.
Moreover, Mao received at least three DGs (3A and 2L come to mind) and a deduction for the fall, and her PCS was mostly in the mid-high 7s; if you look at her choreo, everything around the 3As is empty, just telegraphing for about five seconds, which is exactly why I think it's such a bad idea for Mao to fixate on those, it just draws away from everything else good that she has :(
 
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