U.S. ladies’ prospects?

R.D. · Oct 20, 2009

I'll wait to see Rachel compete this year before I even think about saying she's a lock for the team. And even if she has the best showing of the Americans, things happen- she can have an off-night, or even worse, forced to WD.

Everyone else is too flip-floppy to really make a sound prediction on their standings to make the Team.

janetfan · Oct 20, 2009

fairly4 said:
i am not going to back down--they are discrimnatory against carolina zhang--fans, and everyone else it hoping and holding her down.

HER JUMPS HEIGHT HAS IMPROVEd-she does need to speed up a bit--but no more than ususal, she doesn't pre-rotate.
ALEXE Was overmarked at TEB.
so was yu-na even though she skated well, they didn't mark her two urs in the long and her ur combo in the short triple/triple.
maos was about right--trying to hard-she doesn't make it look easy.
yukari-program was a bore to me and a bit over marked.
as of now--the US GOT WHAT IT wanted Rachel will be overmarked as well as the white us skaters. make no doubt about it.
teb proved me right all along--
carolilne zhang hs to skate perfect--other white skaters can screw up and get scores that are overinflated as usual--the same old same old. from usfsa to isu.

until they change I WILL NOT BUY AND ENDOrSe ANG OLY MEdALIST ANd continue to spread the word not to buy the products-because of cheating and also because once the medalist endorse a product the price goes up. so i will not be a party to it and make sure family and friends, co-workers know the reason.

I am a huge Caroline fan and the first thing I would say is that Caroline appeared to be marked fairly at TEB. If she might have deserved a little more for her SP then her tepid LP might have been overmarked.

You continue to make these accusations about US Skating being racist. Is it possible for you to offer any proof to back up your allegations?

Here is something for you to consider. In the 1980's US Skating had a wonderful National and World Champion and an Olympic medalist named Debi Thomas. Debi is an African-American and when she came on the ice to perform American fans cheered for her the same way they did for her predecessor, Roz Sumners.

In the early 90's US Skating had a Natl, World and Olympic champion named Kristi Yamaguci. Kristi is a Japanese- American and one of America's best loved skaters. After Kristi, we had Nancy and Nicole and then came Michelle.
It feels silly to have to say this but Michelle is not a white girl. Actually Michelle transcended any racial or ethnic barriers and became perhaps the most beloved US skating champion in history. Since Michelle retired we have a new crop of skaters and there are white, asian and African -American skaters all trying to make a name for themselves. I think we also have a young Hispanic skater too.

If you didn't keep mentioning it here it would never enter my mind that Caroline is Chinese-American. She is one of the very most popular skaters here at GS. When I think of Caroline I see a great young All-American girl. Smart, pretty, competitive and talented.

So please consider what I have said. US Skating may be guilty of many things but I doubt that racism or ethnic bigotry is one of them. Recent history and the diverse background of our splendid Lady Champions would prove otherwise.

antmanb · Oct 21, 2009

Penny said:
Thanks, Ant, especially about the insights on speed. I've taken ballet and know how hard it is to master correct technique and to fix bad technique, but good teachers insist on it. At 16, I think Caroline should just stop and fix it; her chances of getting to Vancouver are small, and if she does go, her chances of medaling are nil. Of course, maybe she just doesn't have the spring for jumping and never will.

I suppose that it would be very difficult to tell a 16 year old to ruin her chances of making the Olympic team bu working on fundamental technique issues right now once the seasno has started.

As to the spring in jumps, I have first hand experience of focused plyometric training having great results on jump height and spring, and for me it was in a very short period of time. Maybe Zhang isn't doing enough of the right kind of off ice training to help her with jump height? I expect that a lot of off ice time for her must go into flexibility.

Ant

layman · Oct 21, 2009

Blades of Passion said:
Zhang's jumps are incredibly lacking. They have Tara Lipinski height, without the brilliant rotation Tara acheived.

Zhang barely jumps in her jumps. She winds her body up and then pre-rotates like mad on the ice to achieve her jumps. It is simply ugly. Her Triple Loop looks okay (although still quite lacking) because that's kind of how you execute that jump anyway (the wind up and skid off the ice), but the rest of her jumps are the lowest quality I've ever seen from a skater who wants to be taken seriously as a Senior competitor.

That's rich. The way I see it Caroline Zhang and Tara Lipinski have the exact same technique. Many seem to forget that Lipinski kicked up her free leg in the entrance to the lutz and flip the same way that Zhang does.

Moreover, Tara pre-rotated her upper body the same way that Caroline does to eke out just enough height to complete three (rocket) rotations.

I think the only difference is the scoring system. 6.0 did not not analyze the technique the way CoP currently does.

antmanb · Oct 21, 2009

layman said:
That's rich. The way I see it Caroline Zhang and Tara Lipinski have the exact same technique. Many seem to forget that Lipinski kicked up her free leg in the entrance to the lutz and flip the same way that Zhang does.

Moreover, Tara pre-rotated her upper body the same way that Caroline does to eke out just enough height to complete three (rocket) rotations.

They absolutely, categorically do/did not have the same technique at all!

Lipinski might have had a higher than usual picking leg, but it was no worse than say Mao's picking techqniue. Both Sarah H and Caroline have much higher kicking free legs and harder pick ins thatn Tara ever did.

But the worst technique that carline has that Tara never had was the extreme wind up corkscrew position she gets into on the approach to every jump. Tara did not have that at all - no-one does, Caroline is in a league of her own when it come to that.

Ant

lcd · Oct 21, 2009

Caroline seems a bit of an enigma as well when it comes to self-critique and self-image of her skating. One aspect of her reputation that I have heard is that she is reluctant to think she has to change much when it comes to working with new or other coaches, dance teachers. On the other hand, she always seems to take a somewhat overly critical view of her own performances when asked by the media after she skates. Kind of odd. The other way around would help her more I would think. Just an observation which perplexes me about her.

PROKOFIEV · Oct 21, 2009

I just cannot wait to see all of the American ladies skate. And I wish for them to do well. I think in countries like Russia, Japan, Korea and China, their skating federations pick the talented skaters as they seem them when they are very young and give them funds and full support to train them to become world class competitors. That system can easily create worldwide competitive skaters but somehow takes the opportunity and dream away from the "not so talented" children to even try to become a great skater, at an early age. Only a few chosen ones are seen as able to succeed.
As you know, in America, whoever has the means and opportunity to skate has the chance to pursue their dreams. It is much harder for skaters to become world-class ranked, because USFSA does not financially support them until they really start winning at big competitions like sectionals or nationals.They have to find their coaches, choreographer, personal trainer all by themselves. So most of the skaters have to find ways to become great skaters on their own. It is a lot of work for both the parents and skaters. However, anyone can keep on trying. So I really admire all the American skaters for building their way to success almost by themselves.

Go Rachael, Go Caroline, Go Mirai, Go Alissa, Go Alexe, Go Sasha!!!

SerpentineSteps · Oct 21, 2009

PROKOFIEV said:
I just cannot wait to see all of the American ladies skate. And I wish for them to do well. I think in countries like Russia, Japan, Korea and China, their skating federations pick the talented skaters as they seem them when they are very young and give them funds and full support to train them to become world class competitors. That system can easily create worldwide competitive skaters but somehow takes the opportunity and dream away from the "not so talented" children to even try to become a great skater, at an early age. Only a few chosen ones are seen as able to succeed.
As you know, in America, whoever has the means and opportunity to skate has the chance to pursue their dreams. It is much harder for skaters to become world-class ranked, because USFSA does not financially support them until they really start winning at big competitions like sectionals or nationals.They have to find their coaches, choreographer, personal trainer all by themselves. So most of the skaters have to find ways to become great skaters on their own. It is a lot of work for both the parents and skaters. However, anyone can keep on trying. So I really admire all the American skaters for building their way to success almost by themselves.

Go Rachael, Go Caroline, Go Mirai, Go Alissa, Go Alexe, Go Sasha!!!

While I see your point, I think it's important to consider the flip-side of the US model of talent development, namely that the expectation to "become great skaters on their own" makes figure skating (relatively speaking) a rich-person's sport.

Blades of Passion · Oct 21, 2009

layman said:
That's rich. The way I see it Caroline Zhang and Tara Lipinski have the exact same technique. Many seem to forget that Lipinski kicked up her free leg in the entrance to the lutz and flip the same way that Zhang does.

Moreover, Tara pre-rotated her upper body the same way that Caroline does to eke out just enough height to complete three (rocket) rotations.

I think the only difference is the scoring system. 6.0 did not not analyze the technique the way CoP currently does.

This is incorrect.

Watch Tara's 3Flip closely. She picks into the ice perfectly and her foot leaves the ice immediately. There isn't even a 1/4 turn of pre-rotation. Tara does not wind her body up and skid off the ice; she actually jumps.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g2fWEpIGxj4

Tara did have a kind of kick on her Lutz but it wasn't as bad as Zhang's and, once again, she didn't spin off the ice like Zhang does either.

It's actually very commendable how much rotation Tara got. Especially among women, the Lutz and Flip often leave the ice a half-rotation into the jump. This was the technique Michelle Kwan used (although, note, that doesn't equate to spinning of the ice like Zhang does. Kwan still jumped and THEN rotated). Tara's toepick didn't pre-rotate at all.

I'm pretty sure Tara rotated faster in her jumps than anyone else in history. Her jumps lacked height but they went around neatly.

SerpentineSteps · Oct 21, 2009

Blades of Passion said:
Tara did have a kind of kick on her Lutz but it wasn't as bad as Zhang's and, once again, she didn't spin off the ice like Zhang does either.

I have to agree that Tara's kick was nowhere near as bad as Zhang's. Look at her FS from this past TEB, for example. When preparing for the toe-pick, her upper body is virtually horizontal, and her right foot is way above her head!

Blades of Passion · Oct 21, 2009

Also, wow, that program from Tara is so completely underrated. Sandra Bezic did a marvelous job with the choreography and Tara felt it with genuine emotion and EXCITEMENT.

The differences between 6.0 and CoP are very striking here. Tara only has 6 jumping passes, her footwork gently glides across the ice rather than twisting in turning in every which direction, the Spiral highlights the music and uses up only a brief amount of time rather laboring across the ice, and the spins are quick and neat rather than incorporating positions which add nothing to the texture of the music.

Spending less time jumping, spiraling, and spinning, there is actually room in the program to just SKATE and interpret the music.

sleepymom · Oct 22, 2009

PROKOFIEV said:
I just cannot wait to see all of the American ladies skate. And I wish for them to do well. I think in countries like Russia, Japan, Korea and China, their skating federations pick the talented skaters as they seem them when they are very young and give them funds and full support to train them to become world class competitors....

For your information, remove Korea out of the list. There's no such national program in Korea, and there no monetary support for any figure skater in Korea, including Yuna. - They actually get 30% of Yuna's winning money always, and then last year gave about the same amount and called it support. - Skating Union in KR is all about short-track, and there's no training link for figure skater. That's one of the reason Yuna's training in CA. Before that, she used public link in the mall. Sad to say, I think Yuna will be one and only figure skater in that level from Korea, for a long time if they don't start do something.

Flip side of this story is that, great talent will bloom regardless of the environment. And I believe US has much much better environment that that of KR, so I'm sure we'll see another brilliant skaters from US soon.

*Sniper* · Oct 22, 2009

sleepymom said:
For your information, remove Korea out of the list. There's no such national program in Korea, and there no monetary support for any figure skater in Korea, including Yuna. - They actually get 30% of Yuna's winning money always, and then last year gave about the same amount and called it support. - Skating Union in KR is all about short-track, and there's no training link for figure skater. That's one of the reason Yuna's training in CA. Before that, she used public link in the mall. Sad to say, I think Yuna will be one and only figure skater in that level from Korea, for a long time if they don't start do something.

Flip side of this story is that, great talent will bloom regardless of the environment. And I believe US has much much better environment that that of KR, so I'm sure we'll see another brilliant skaters from US soon.

Talk about 'Miracle on Ice.' :eek:

Obviously, the US ladies need some catching up to do.
I don't have personal favorites for the two Olympic spots at the moment.
Whoever is in the best shape at the Nationals, I will fully support!

My guess is that Sasha will get one of the spots if she finishes at least third, unless the top two are in absolutely sparkling forms.

Good luck to them all!

cosmos · Oct 22, 2009

PROKOFIEV said:
I just cannot wait to see all of the American ladies skate. And I wish for them to do well. I think in countries like Russia, Japan, Korea and China, their skating federations pick the talented skaters as they seem them when they are very young and give them funds and full support to train them to become world class competitors. That system can easily create worldwide competitive skaters but somehow takes the opportunity and dream away from the "not so talented" children to even try to become a great skater, at an early age. Only a few chosen ones are seen as able to succeed.
As you know, in America, whoever has the means and opportunity to skate has the chance to pursue their dreams. It is much harder for skaters to become world-class ranked, because USFSA does not financially support them until they really start winning at big competitions like sectionals or nationals.They have to find their coaches, choreographer, personal trainer all by themselves. So most of the skaters have to find ways to become great skaters on their own. It is a lot of work for both the parents and skaters. However, anyone can keep on trying. So I really admire all the American skaters for building their way to success almost by themselves.

Go Rachael, Go Caroline, Go Mirai, Go Alissa, Go Alexe, Go Sasha!!!

I think you are referring to the old Soviet elite sport system. AFAIK, even Russia doesn't have the system any more, but I am not sure about China. The Korean govenment is not directly involved in elite sports any more. The only support from the government is the pension fund for Oly medalists, which is only $600 a month for OGM, not a big money.

Basically, FS is a rich's sport in Korea just as in US. You have to take care of yourself. KSU is obviously a civil organization. Financially, it depends on corporate sponsors. After YuNa's success, it seems to be better financially, I don't know the details though. So, it seems to me, YuNa is helping KSU, not the other way. Now, if you are national team, you get free ice time (2 hr a day or so) and small amount of financial support. YuNa's financial source is her sponsors and her endorsement deals (which is big). Her big success encourages many kids to learn skating and new ice rinks to be built.

enlight78 · Oct 22, 2009

Blades of Passion said:
Also, wow, that program from Tara is so completely underrated. Sandra Bezic did a marvelous job with the choreography and Tara felt it with genuine emotion and EXCITEMENT.

The differences between 6.0 and CoP are very striking here. Tara only has 6 jumping passes, her footwork gently glides across the ice rather than twisting in turning in every which direction, the Spiral highlights the music and uses up only a brief amount of time rather laboring across the ice, and the spins are quick and neat rather than incorporating positions which add nothing to the texture of the music.

Spending less time jumping, spiraling, and spinning, there is actually room in the program to just SKATE and interpret the music.

I have to agree I love tara program choreographically; but I ironically i found the spins and footwork to be so light and forgettable that they did little to help express the music; other than the jumps there was just skating; The program seemed to boil down to great arm movements and jumps; I actually like the COP step sequences as skater like yu na; asada;chan;kozuka; daisuke; oda ; verner, Abbot and even evan uses them to really bring the music to life, But i have to agree with the spiral; We really should make spiral sequences optional.

Blades of Passion · Oct 22, 2009

Well, let's go through the spins:

1.) The opening layback. I liked how gentle it was. This fit the music.

2.) Combination spin after the Lutz combination. Had good speed and centering. Her position in the first sit spin was excellent. The second half of the spin wasn't as strong as the first half, but I will take this combination spin over one that slows down and/or loses centering because of incorporating pointless changes of edge or "difficult" positions

3.) Camel-change-Camel after the 3Loop-3Loop. Had pretty good speed and centering. I think a sit-change-sit would have been better here, but nothing about this spin was bad.

4.) The final flying Camel spin after the 3Toe-3Sal. This was very effective. The 3Toe-3Sal combination at the end of the program highlighted the music wonderfully (and SO gutsy doing something like that literally at the very end of a performance) but, given its placement in the program, there was barely any time left for a spin. Under CoP, a lengthier spin would have been required to maximize points. The illusion spin Tara does at the end of the flying camel is a perfect match for the excitement of her performance and the music. Pretty sad how illusion spins don't get any credit in CoP.

I think Tara's footwork could have benefited a little from more complexity, but for the music that footwork sequence was preferable to one where the upper body is constantly dropping and swinging around - something which CoP encourages.

Olympia · Oct 22, 2009

How interesting to see an analysis of Tara's program to contrast with today's typical COP programs. In the Michelle-Tara competitions, I supported Michelle, but I could certainly appreciate Tara's abilities. She wasn't the kind of artist whose interpretation lives through the ages (like Janet Lynn's Afternoon of a Faun or Wylie's Henry V, say), but she was a precise, meticulous skater, and in these days of crash-and-burn competitors, her steadiness is refreshing to recall. While I understand the reason for COP, it's true that the constant wish to add points can result in a rather busy, hectic program. Thanks for the reminder of Tara's Sandra Bezic program, and the breakdown of her jumping technique.

mel66 · Oct 24, 2009

I adore Ashley Wagner!! Her future is bright for sure! Even though she is yet to be one of the best skaters, she has a lot of potentials

Tinymavy15 · Oct 24, 2009

lcd said:
Caroline seems a bit of an enigma as well when it comes to self-critique and self-image of her skating. One aspect of her reputation that I have heard is that she is reluctant to think she has to change much when it comes to working with new or other coaches, dance teachers. On the other hand, she always seems to take a somewhat overly critical view of her own performances when asked by the media after she skates. Kind of odd. The other way around would help her more I would think. Just an observation which perplexes me about her.

Those two characteristics are not really in opposition. She is frustrated with her scores because she feels that she is skating better than that. She is reluctant to make changes to her skating because she is happy with the way she skates, just not the scores.

Phoenix347 · Oct 25, 2009

Tinymavy15 said:
Those two characteristics are not really in opposition. She is frustrated with her scores because she feels that she is skating better than that. She is reluctant to make changes to her skating because she is happy with the way she skates, just not the scores.

I would say to Caroline, look at your score sheet very carefully and figure out what they're looking for and do it. Then she won't be as unhappy with her scores and be less critical of her performance. I know she's young but get to the next level, she will need to become more mature.

U.S. ladies’ prospects?

R.D.

janetfan

Match Penalty

antmanb

layman

antmanb

lcd

Match Penalty

PROKOFIEV

SerpentineSteps

Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be

SerpentineSteps

Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be

sleepymom

Sniper

cosmos

enlight78

Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be

Olympia

mel66

Tinymavy15

Sinnerman for the win

Phoenix347

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