Jennifer Kirk's review on TEB

wonderlen3000 said:

Well just limit the 2A back to only two. I for one, sick of seeing all the 2A poping up every where from every skaters.

To be hornest the only current top skaters with complete set of triple are: Miki, Joannie and Calrolina.

Yuna is banking too much on her 2A as safety net and Mao is banking on her 3A as cushion.

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That's what I appreciate about Miki and Joannie. Their jumps look so solid and they attempt them all in their programs.

I don't understand why Miki and Mao are so often downgraded on their 3Loops in combination jumps, to the point where they don't attempt them anymore in competition. I feel like Miki always got so much height on her 3Loop as the second part of a combination and it always seemed really complete to me. Are the judges or tech specialists saying that she (and Mao) is cheating the 3Loop jump on the front end instead of on the landing? But that doesn't make sense. I always loved watching Miki and Mao with their huge 3?-3Loop combos, although there is also something very special about Yu Na with her 3F-3T and 3L-3T because she gets such air and distance.

And at least Yu Na goes for the very difficult 2A-3T combination in her programs which is 5.5 revolutions all at once. Carolina was never consistent at all with the 2A-3T. Mao should go for a solo 3A, ditch the planned second one, and add a 2A-3T later in her program to match Yu Na.

Jasper said:

In terms of edge errors marked in the protocols, what is the difference between "e" and "!" ...? I apologize if this is a stupid question. I think when I looked at the TEB protocols, I noticed Nakano with a ! and Asada with an e.

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To be brief, 'e' means your edge is totally, obviously wrong while '!' means it's questionable.
Nakano occasionally gets '!' on both flip and lutz. Mao used to flutz severely and got 'e' during 2007-2008 season and last season '!' or 'e'.

By the way, I didn't notice Mao got an 'e' this time. Where did she get 'e'? She didn't attempt lutz here. Did she get 'e' on her flip?? I think the only lady who got 'e' is Caroline.

Mafke said:

Witt said it best (paraphrasing) you can't win the gold with the SP but you can sure lose it.
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I don't think she is the one that came up with it, though...

gourry said:

To be brief, 'e' means your edge is totally, obviously wrong while '!' means it's questionable.
Nakano occasionally gets '!' on both flip and lutz. Mao used to flutz severely and got 'e' during 2007-2008 season and last season '!' or 'e'.

By the way, I didn't notice Mao got an 'e' this time. Where did she get 'e'? She didn't attempt lutz here. Did she get 'e' on her flip?? I think the only lady who got 'e' is Caroline.

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Yeah sorry, I was thinking of past protocols with Mao.

Tonichelle said:

I don't think she is the one that came up with it, though...

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I'm pretty sure she wasn't the first, but I do remember her saying it in 1992 after the ladies SP and it fits her competitive philosophy so wonderfully I can't imagine it being quite so effective from any other competitor/coach/announcer.

In reply to Katarina Witt saying way back when the old 6.0 system was being used (i.e. you can't win the gold with SP but you can sure lose it).

My response:

B.S. Nowadays in the 21st century, in this new COP system, Yuna Kim just proved to all that you most definitely can W-I-N gold with the SP!

And if you don't bring your A-game to the table in the SP, there's nothing you can do in the LP that's going to help when the leader is ahead by 20-50+ points. It's over. Finito!

And that's JMHO.

Nadine said:

Nowadays in the 21st century, in this new COP system, Yuna Kim just proved to all that you most definitely can W-I-N gold with the SP!

And if you don't bring your A-game to the table in the SP, there's nothing you can do in the LP that's going to help when the leader is ahead by 20-50+ points. It's over. Finito!

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Wrong. The only reason Kim was ahead by that much was that her competitors all made mistakes and she skated extremely well. Basically, you cannot win an event in the SP; what can happen is that your competitors may lose an event in the SP. But there is no way any skater can amass more than a 10-point lead in the SP barring mistakes by the rest of the field, and in the LP, that sort of lead can certainly be lost. Also, there is absolutely no scenario in which he skater can lead by 50 points after the SP over their nearest competitor at the elite level. People consistently write off skaters after bad SPs only to be surprised.

The one exception I can think of is Plushy at Torino, mainly because he was very consistent, the other skaters seemed to be scared of him and the judges were overmarking him; so yes, he won it in the SP.

Blades of Passion said:

Yu-Na is not "better" than Mao. They are both amazingly talented, in different ways.

One fact does remain, however. Mao needs the Triple Axel to defeat Yu-Na. This is true.

I'm not sure why you are trying to turn that fact into a slight against Mao, though, Kimmie Fan. Since when is being able to do the Triple Axel an "excuse"? It is a very difficult element that Yu-Na can not do. Yu-Na also never does the Triple Loop because that jump gives her major problems. Yu-Na is actually rather fortunate that, under CoP, her problems with the Triple Loop don't really matter. She can just do a Double Axel and barely lose any points.

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Who can say now that Yuna is "NOT" better than any ladies on ice?
Actually Yuna's 3lutz-3toeloop is stronger than any other ladies jumps including Mao's 3Axel.

hmmm

Buttercup said:

Originally Posted by shallwedansu
And I would hardly call a 3-3 simple. Which is the feeling I get from people sometimes when they pit Yu-Na's layout vs Mao's layout. Yu-Na does the same, simple 3-3 she always does, but Mao goes for the more difficult 3A. Not in exactly those words, but more or less.

I wouldn't, either, but look what Jenny's suggesting for Mao:

If I were Asada, I would instead work on my triple flip-triple loop combination and the consistency and takeoff on my triple lutz. Even if it means doing a simpler triple flip-double toe loop and taking a triple loop out of footwork in her short program, Asada must skate a clean short if she wants to keep herself in contention heading into the long program.
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I think you misread what Jenny said. She said "a simpler triple flip-double toe loop" not "a simpler triple flip-triple toe loop." I watched the whole competition, and I didn't see many female skaters who could land perfect triple-triple combination. Also, Triple lutz-Triple toe combination has higher base points than triple axel-double toe combination. So how could it be simple and easy???

Mao is a great skater, but it's about time her fans and Japanese media stop praising her to be technically superior to Yuna because Mas has to realize that she needs to come up with a better plan to improve herself in competitions. It really makes me upset to see her trying 3A, and fall miserably on the ice....

figurejennah said:

I think you misread what Jenny said. She said "a simpler triple flip-double toe loop" not "a simpler triple flip-triple toe loop." I watched the whole competition, and I didn't see many female skaters who could land perfect triple-triple combination. Also, Triple lutz-Triple toe combination has higher base points than triple axel-double toe combination. So how could it be simple and easy???

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No, I read Jenny correctly - you seem to have misunderstood my argument. I take issue with Jenny advocating that Mao try a simpler jump layout; I think Mao needs time and training to get a difficult layout right instead of going to triple-doubles just because she's not always perfect. Jenny Kirk, as a 6.0 skater, doesn't seem to realize that in many cases, losing the base value of a 3-3 is probably worse than going for it and making mistakes.

I admire Mao for taking risks with her skating - a sentiment that has nothing to do with my views on Yu-Na (which are very positive, I assure you).

Buttercup said:

Wrong. The only reason Kim was ahead by that much was that her competitors all made mistakes and she skated extremely well. Basically, you cannot win an event in the SP; what can happen is that your competitors may lose an event in the SP. But there is no way any skater can amass more than a 10-point lead in the SP barring mistakes by the rest of the field, and in the LP, that sort of lead can certainly be lost. Also, there is absolutely no scenario in which he skater can lead by 50 points after the SP over their nearest competitor at the elite level. People consistently write off skaters after bad SPs only to be surprised.

The one exception I can think of is Plushy at Torino, mainly because he was very consistent, the other skaters seemed to be scared of him and the judges were overmarking him; so yes, he won it in the SP.

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Hi, Buttercup, it's 4AM here in Seattle (I'm having a cup of hot cocoa to try to get back to sleep).

I'm glad I logged onto the computer to see your reply. Though I see your point, I have to disagree. TEB wasn't the first time Yuna Kim walked away with the gold after skating a flawless SP, she also did it at 2009 Worlds. Yes, Mao & a few others made mistakes, but there was no way in h*ll Mao was going to catch Yuna in the FS even if she landed both 3As (even the commentators were saying that). It's pretty much over when the leader is ahead by 10+ points (it's all relative, could be 20/30/40/50, that's my point).

So unless one can hang tough in the SP by skating to one's utmost potential, which in Mao's case is a 3A & a 3/3 combo., then one might as well concede the whole competiton. That's unless one isn't going for gold, but rather silver or bronze.

Btw, in reply to Yuna's fans & 3/3 combos., I never said 3/3 combos. were easy, they're not. Nor did I ever mean to imply such in regards to Yuna. If I did, I would have said so, straight forward.

I'm talking about Mao's jumping potential here & what she is capable of, that's my focus. And Mao is capable of landing exquisite 3axels, as well as 3/3 combos.

One last note, the biggest difference between 6.0 & COP is that in the old system as long as you were in the top 3 after the SP, you had a shot at gold, as whomever won the long won the competition. However, with COP, that's not true anymore. Basically if you can lead by 10 or more points after the SP, it's finished, you've won. And once again that's JMHO, and I'm sticking with it.

Off to bed now, the cocoa did the trick. Night everyone.

Buttercup said:

Jenny was a 6.0 skater, and sometimes it really shows in her writing - she's written more than once that "simple but clean" is better. Mao Asada is pushing herself and trying to skate the most difficult programs she can. It's a process, it won't happen immediately - but it deserves respect, not criticism.

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Totally agree with you, Buttercup!
Doing it in practice and doing it in competitions are two different things. She's grown, her skating has changed, her program has changed. I think Mao just has to jump her 3As in competitions to make it a more solid jump for her.

I find it funny that Jenny wrote

Asada reportedly spent most of her practice time in Paris with a myopic focus on her triple axel, choosing to abandon the training of her triple lutz and triple-triple combination.

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Of course she didn't spend time on the lutz or the triple-triple in Paris, they were not planned in her program at TEB. Mao says she practices all of the jumps, and many combinations whether they are in the program or not. She said that practicing all the jumps and different combinations gives her more confindence and choice.
And if you look at her practices, you see she jumps much better than in her competitions.
I think one of the larger problem is in how she approaches the "real thing", whether it's mental of physical or both, I don't know.

It's only October. She's the type that grows along the season.
Let's see how Mao adjusts or changes her programs, and how she makes it at the Olympics.

Nadine said:

TEB wasn't the first time Yuna Kim walked away with the gold after skating a flawless SP, she also did it at 2009 Worlds. Yes, Mao & a few others made mistakes, but there was no way in h*ll Mao was going to catch Yuna in the FS even if she landed both 3As (even the commentators were saying that). It's pretty much over when the leader is ahead by 10+ points (it's all relative, could be 20/30/40/50, that's my point).

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My point was that Yu-Na, good as she is, still needs help to build a truly insurmountable lead. She can do so through a combination of skating very well and having her opponents not skate well - but this means that she is only part of the equation. So really I don't think we disagree: certainly it's possible to have a huge gap out of the SP, one that will usually be enough (so long as you're not Tomas Verner doing a Hidden Czech routine). But I just don't think it's possible without factors external to the leader's own skating.

One last note, the biggest difference between 6.0 & COP is that in the old system as long as you were in the top 3 after the SP, you had a shot at gold, as whomever won the long won the competition. However, with COP, that's not true anymore. Basically if you can lead by 10 or more points after the SP, it's finished, you've won.

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Is it true, though? Let's say Brian Joubert had skated a blinder on Friday and scored 10 points ahead of Oda, but that the LP would have ended the exact same way. Oda would have won by a mile. S/S had a sizable lead out of the SP - though not 10 points - and finished way behind M/T. Gaps in LP scores can be huge - a skater can make up a lot of points there.

Good night!

chevret, I see you're pretty new here - welcome, and post more often!

Buttercup, you lift my spirits!

The Olympic Season is getting to me. Seriously, I vacillate between defeatist attitude to victory to somewhere in between. But I wouldn't trade it for the world, there is simply nothing like the Olympic Season. Its been like this for me since I was a kid & saw Dorothy Hamill win the gold medal in 1976 (& Nadia Comaneci later on that summer). Just once every 4 years, only one shot, at least at Worlds you get a chance every year. No, for the Olympics, you have to peak on that one magical night ~ the stars, the moon, the ice, have to be just right ~ an amalgamation if you will.

When all is said & done Mao can skate naked to some far out music, what really matters is that she lands the jumps. I cannot emphasize that enough. And her personal best score of 201.87 isn't going to cut it, as shown at 2009 WTT wherein she landed the exact same jump layout she is trying again this season, which include three 3axels & no 3/3 combos. whatsoever, just 6 triple jumps in the LP, that's it.

The judges have shown that they consider her 3A just like any other triple, nothing special, no extra credit. Better to lay off that second 3A in the FS (& maybe even in the SP; can't believe I'm saying this, *screams*). Seriously, she can try to hang on in the SP by matching Yuna jump for jump (i.e. one 3/3 combo., 3F, 2A) knowing that her triples will not receive +GOE as Yuna does, which means knowing that even if she lands all her jumps in the SP, she'll be behind Yuna. That doesn't sound like a winning strategy to me nor the heart of a champion. So why not try to even the score by substituting the 3F for the 3A to add a few extra points to offset the +GOE points Yuna is going to get.

Now comes the FS wherein she can once again maximize her own jumping potential. What secret weapon does she have that her competitors don't!?! Aha, yes she has a fairly consistent 3A that she can use this to her advantage ~ an 8-triple program, something that has never been attempted by a woman before because in order to do so she must have a fairly consistent 3A ~ and Mao does. Thus, why not outjump your competitors! Rack up those precious points by going for that extra triple jump. Skate a well-rounded & balanced program. Start off with the 3A to show the judges, yep, I can do that, no problem, light as a feather. Then follow it up with a triple of every type to show the judges that she can do all the triples (i.e. axel, lutz, flip, loop, salchow, toe), four of which are in 3/3 combinations. Done. Tada! Anyhow that's my scenario.:thumbsup: