I for one, focused on these things because they we're factual erros and because many of her articles give her opinion on events and performances (which I find interesting to read, so it's ok with me ) and then proceed to use the event to back up the arguments for her agenda, the changing of the system and the blame of COP for lack of love/joy etc. in the sport. I think when you take out one flaw of a system (and say that there are many more) and end your argument with it, it should be correct
That's what my post was about. What I selected to comment on. It was not a précis of her article.
I'm also for making certain changes to the system, that's a thing I have in common with Sonia . Adjusting the positive GOEs of Quads is one thing I would like to change and so I took the opportunity to address it.
The part that you quoted Janetfan, is actually very nice because I can only agree with it. I want to see all these things too in a performance, and in a champion. :agree:
But what about the following:
Now, I would like her to give examples because I think, and that's of course only my opinion, but I fail to see that there was so much more choreography and artistry in every performance in the past. The steps and spins are, of course, more difficult. But has artistry completely vanished. Not IMHO.
In the past (I can speak for the time from mid 90s onwards) I can remember many programs where the time was not used for choreography or artistry. Step sequences were also often neglected and were rarely very interesting. At least to me.
The rules are more complex now. The demands are higher. It takes a lot to skate these programs. Free time is scarce. Granted. We're there more clean performances pre-COP. Yep absolutely. More interesting performances. Not IMHO.
This is really a very general statement I can't agree with. I'm not only seeing suffering. I can imagine that the performances of Joubert, Kostner and S/S had an impact on her perception but their problems were not a result of the judging system. Additionally, this was a GP, the first of the season. It was not a disaster. I for one, was not expecting flawless and brilliant performances by 10 skaters in each segment.
Well rant over
It was by no means my intention to misrepresent Sonja. I'm still always interested in what she has to say. There are things I can agree with and things I can't. But the re-occuring argument of good old days vs. bad COP days. I simple don't like it. There were good and artistic performances then and there are good and artistic performances now IMHO.
So are yours Janetfan, :yes:
I too had to think a lot about it all before I responded. And it's a complex matter.
I do feel strongly about the benefits of the new system (within reason, of course ) and I also feel strongly about the current generation of skating vs. the older generation as I appreciate skaters and skates from all times.
So I'm also in danger to get carried away in defense of the current state of skating.
You are so right about Tomas. I actually was so glad as to how he performed, I overlooked the "minor" mistakes he made in the 2nd half as it could have been so much worse. I'm already in the hopeless fan state where one is glad about every decent performance one gets to see
janetfan said:Many of the events you use were actually nailbiters and featured upsets
janetfan said:I still prefer the suspense that the SP's from 6.0 provided. No way could some one like Evan totally bomb their SP and then come so close to a medal like he did in Torino
I still prefer the suspense that the SP's from 6.0 provided. No way could some one like Evan totally bomb their SP and then come so close to a medal like he did in Torino. Some like it that way but it takes away so much of the suspense.
I miss having two separate competitons that were both so meaningful and important to a skaters chances for a medal.
1. How many COP competitions are actually over after the short?
At TEB, only one short program winner was the overall winner.
At Worlds 09, it was 2 of 3 (Kim and S/S; Lysacek was second after the short).
At Worlds 08, it was 1 of 3 (Buttle; S/S were second after the short, so was Asada)
At Worlds 07, it was 2 of 3 (Joubert and S/Z; Ando was second after the short)
At Worlds 06, none of the short program winners won. But they also had the qualifying rounds.
Now, comparing that to the years before COP....
2004 Worlds: Cohen and Arakawa won qualifying. Cohen won the short. Arakawa won the long and won the championship. Plushenko won all three. T/M won the short, came second in the long, won overall. So 2/3
2003 Worlds: Kwan and Plushenko won all three events. T/M won the short, came second in the long, came second overall. So 2/3 again
2002 Worlds: Slutskaya, Yagudin, S/Z all won all portions of the event. So 3/3
2002 Olympics: Yagudin won both portions, Hughes won the long. So 1/2.
2001 Worlds: Kwan and Slutskaya each won qualifying. Slutskaya the short. Kwan the long, Kwan wins overall. Plushenko won all three. B/S won the short, S/P the long and the title. So 1/3
Obviously, I excluded ice dance (which would show little movement before or after COP), but I think the results state something different. The thing is because Kim's dominating - at 4CC, at Worlds, now at TEB, posting huge scores that dwarf everyone else, it seems like people are inclined to say the competition's over after the short. I just don't see that to be true, or certainly not moreso than in pre-COP days. Is it because of the big Olympic victories of Huges and Lipinski?
Bianchetti's article in general
She makes the same arguments she always makes, which I have to admit is rather boring to me. My biggest beef lies in what I believe to be the central contradiction in her thesis: the new system kills artistry. But she also points out that Kim, Asada, (and in other articles, Buttle/Chan/Rochette... she loves them Canadians) etc are in fact able to combine artistry with athleticism to earn the points required to excel. So the new system doesn't kill artistry. It DOES make it more difficult to combine the two, and because it's a sport, the emphasis is on athleticism, which is perfectly fine. However, those who excel at doing both, excel overall. It doesn't seem like something worth complaining about, but she does it, and does it big time. It seems like the direction the sport SHOULD be heading in is the one it is. (Also, frankly, there's a degree of schadenfraude in her tone that bugs me).
In the past (I can speak for the time from mid 90s onwards) I can remember many programs where the time was not used for choreography or artistry. Step sequences were also often neglected and were rarely very interesting. At least to me.
The rules are more complex now. The demands are higher. It takes a lot to skate these programs. Free time is scarce. Granted. We're there more clean performances pre-COP. Yep absolutely. More interesting performances. Not IMHO.
Additionally, this was a GP, the first of the season. It was not a disaster. I for one, was not expecting flawless and brilliant performances by 10 skaters in each segment. As to the Grand Moments. She said the first three in each segment were outstanding. How many more outstanding performances does she expect from a GP?
Well rant over
It was by no means my intention to misrepresent Sonja. I'm still always interested in what she has to say. There are things I can agree with and things I can't. But the re-occuring argument of good old days vs. bad COP days. I simply don't like it. There were good and artistic performances then and there are good and artistic performances now IMHO.
Others have already noted that Sonia: 1. makes good points but 2. tends to be repetitive and 3. ignore the facts if they don't suit her argument. I agree with her that the system needs work - a lot of work - but I'm not ready to make the sort of sweeping generalizations she did.
That's just sloppy. She should have taken the time to get the details right.The list of the skaters named by the ISU to take part in the Trophée Eric Bompard was exciting. It included most of the skaters who, at least on paper, might claim a medal at the next Olympic Games: in Ladies, reigning world champion Yu-Na Kim, the legendary Mao Asada, Carolina Kostner and Kiira Korpi. In Men, Brian Joubert, Thomas Verner and Nobunari Oda. In Pairs, three-time world champions Savchenko/Szolkowy, Dube/Davison, and Muchortova/Trankov, and in Ice Dancing, Virtue/Moir and Pechalat/Bouzard.
One other thing I just noticed - not only did she get the jump values wrong and the bit about S/S winning Worlds three times, but also:
That's just sloppy. She should have taken the time to get the details right.
Also, Mao is very good, but legendary? What has she done to qualify her for that status?
yes because Johnny should have been held up after the SP in 2006 and Evan held down. How dare their placements practically reverse on the second night!
or how about just taking a number out of a hat killing your chances at getting high marks (ala Mike Weiss' SP in 2002) yeah, definitely a nail biter there... why even bother trying if you're not in the final two groups?