Ladies LP

[gourry]

Yes, she deserved the downgrade, but the penalty for downgraded jumps is still too severe. Her landings were clean. If she had rotated slightly further, but then double-footed the landing, fallen out of the landing, and put both her hands down on the ice...that would have scored higher.

There is a big problem with that.

I don't get it.
Last season, you criticized the double penalty for downgrades were too severe.
This year, they changed the rule and judges give GOE without knowing whether or not the jump is downgraded by the caller, and purely by their judgement on the quality of jumps.
No more double penalty. I thought you were gonna be very happy with it.
If they gave bad GOE on jumps, it's simply because they judged the jumps were not that good.
Yet you are still criticizing the penalty is too severe.
WHAT do you want to do with downgrade??

It seems to me that you eventually want to abolish downgrading.
I strongly disagree with that idea because it is highly unfair for those who put their time and effort and often risk injuries to fully rotate those damn jumps!

[Mathman]

ITA and thought Alissa skated well enough to medal.

Alissa did well, but IMHO Leonova fully deserved her bronze. A little rough around the edges, but she did the full set of triples (sort of). Alissa did have a fall, and the first triple loop was severely underrotated -- probably intended to be a combination.

[R.D.]

Alissa did well, but IMHO Leonova fully deserved her bronze. A little rough around the edges, but she did the full set of triples (sort of). Alissa did have a fall, and the first triple loop was severely underrotated -- probably intended to be a combination.

Agreed. To me, if anything was questionable in that comp, it was the margin of victory by Ando. I was rather underwhelmed by her FS and I know she can do much better than that. That skate should NOT have gotten 110+ points.

[Blades of Passion]

I don't get it.
Last season, you criticized the double penalty for downgrades were too severe.
This year, they changed the rule and judges give GOE without knowing whether or not the jump is downgraded by the caller, and purely by their judgement on the quality of jumps.
No more double penalty. I thought you were gonna be very happy with it.
If they gave bad GOE on jumps, it's simply because they judged the jumps were not that good.
Yet you are still criticizing the penalty is too severe.
WHAT do you want to do with downgrade??

It seems to me that you eventually want to abolish downgrading.
I strongly disagree with that idea because it is highly unfair for those who put their time and effort and often risk injuries to fully rotate those damn jumps!

The double penalty is still there. Alissa's Loops received -GOE because the judges are grading the jump in comparison to a Triple jump, not a Double jump (which is what the jump is worth when it is downgraded).

I don't think you've really listened to what I've said in the past, though.

Downgraded jumps should have their own base value. An underrotated Triple is less than Triple but MUCH more than a Double. It should be worth an amount that is between that of a Double and a Triple.

A Double Loop is worth 1.5 and a Triple Loop is worth 5.0. A downgraded Triple Loop should be worth something like 3.0.

[Blades of Passion]

Alissa did well, but IMHO Leonova fully deserved her bronze. A little rough around the edges, but she did the full set of triples (sort of). Alissa did have a fall, and the first triple loop was severely underrotated -- probably intended to be a combination.

Well Leonova didn't do the Loop - she doubled it. Can't really give her credit for the Toeloop either since she fell out of the landing.

Although, watching the performance again, it was better than I had thought. She was actually undermarked as well. So, I'd say she deserved to be ahead in the LP. Although, I still think Czisny had the best SP of the competition (much better than Leonova there), so she deserved Bronze overall.

It was a weak competition, though. Nobody was really memorable overall.

[gourry]

The double penalty is still there. Alissa's Loops received -GOE because the judges are grading the jump in comparison to a Triple jump, not a Double jump (which is what the jump is worth when it is downgraded).

I don't think you've really listened to what I've said in the past, though.

Downgraded jumps should have their own base value. An underrotated Triple is less than Triple but MUCH more than a Double. It should be worth an amount that is between that of a Double and a Triple.

A Double Loop is worth 1.5 and a Triple Loop is worth 5.0. A downgraded Triple Loop should be worth something like 3.0.

I got your point. I also feel bad when skaters get pretty low scores because of tiny little lack of rotation.
BUT.
What about spins and spirals? Skaters often get lower level of spiral because they didn't hold 0.3 second on one of their positions. Or because they hold 7.5 revolutions instead of 8 they get lower level. It ALWAYS happens. How are you gonna help them on that?
I don't think level 1, 1.5, 2, 2.5, 3, 3.5, and 4 is the solution.
I don't think double, double and a half, and triple is the solution, either. Even then, there will be unsatisfied voice saying 'that jump shouldn't be called as double and a half loop. It was close to triple.'
Anyway, this is just my opinion.

[Blades of Passion]

Nothing will ever be perfect but it would be better to do it that way then leave it as the mess that we currently have.

As for Spirals (and spins and footwork) - The GOE bonus marks should be the same as Triple jumps, regardless of the level. It is indeed annoying that a Spiral can go from level 4 to level 3, and thus lose a massive amount of points (since only level 4 spirals receive the full +GOE benefit), just because a position was held for a fraction less than 3 seconds.

[skatingbc]

I know I've been outspoken about my approval of downgrades and -GOE for downgrades. I think the new rules the ISU have instituted about the judges not knowing if a jump has been downgraded or not is fair. As long as the judges hold each skater to the same standards and the tech panel is consistent with their calls (I know, this is another story entirely) then the system is fair. I realize that there can be huge arguments about seemingly unfair calls and biases coming from the tech panel and judges. Let's face it. Figure skating is a judged sport. The was it is being judged right now is, imo, more objective than 6.0. I never really bothered to learn much about the 6.0 system, so that could play into my conclusion. As long as it's judged though, there is no way to get rid of bias. That's human nature and there's not much we can do about it.

After saying that...Plushenko's PCS marks were a bit nuts!

[skate4ever]

An underrotated Triple is less than Triple but MUCH more than a Double. It should be worth an amount that is between that of a Double and a Triple.

A Double Loop is worth 1.5 and a Triple Loop is worth 5.0. A downgraded Triple Loop should be worth something like 3.0.

I don't agree with that at all.
Under-rotated triple jump is an incomplete/unsuccessful maneuver,
whereas a fully-rotated double jump is a complete/successful one.

It's like comparing a weightlifter lifting 100kg halfway
vs. lifting 75kg all the way.

[skatingbc]

I don't agree with that at all.
Under-rotated triple jump is an incomplete/unsuccessful maneuver,
whereas a fully-rotated double jump is a complete/successful one.

It's like comparing a weightlifter lifting 100kg halfway
vs. lifting 75kg all the way.

ITA. Don't argue with Blades of Passion on this one though, I've tried.

[James R]

You're missing the real problem.

Score things however you want, as long as it's fair.

What good does it do to argue about methods of scoring underrotation, when you can clearly see people getting boosted by up to +20 PCS or more between the short and long???? It's like arguing about the fairest method to throw a pair of loaded dice.

So far, the 2009 GP series is a massive embarrassment to the sport of skating.

[koongpa]

Mao has the skating skills to die for, but her performance and interpretation IMO were terrible at this event. Yet, this is not reflected in the protocols. The problem is that this happens to everyone. Each category of PCS is marked about the same score range for a skater. This is not fair because these categories should be judged totally independent of one another. PCS should be graded based on the characteristics of each category, but the reality is that skaters have their set numbers when it comes to PCS. As often as I see, the protocols only show at most a one point margin from the weakest category to the strongest category. I think PCS will be more fairly judged if the chatacteristics of each category are maximized and reflected in huge margins of number.

[mskater93]

I don't agree with that at all.
Under-rotated triple jump is an incomplete/unsuccessful maneuver,
whereas a fully-rotated double jump is a complete/successful one.

It's like comparing a weightlifter lifting 100kg halfway
vs. lifting 75kg all the way.

What about a jump that is rotated but has a flip out/fall/two foot?

[Blades of Passion]

I don't agree with that at all.
Under-rotated triple jump is an incomplete/unsuccessful maneuver,
whereas a fully-rotated double jump is a complete/successful one.

If a skater plans a Triple jump and does a double jump, that is NOT a successful jumping pass.

If a skater plans a Triple jump and underrotates it, that is not ideal but it at least shows a greater level of success than if they had simply doubled out.

The reasoning of your argument states that a bunny hop shows more skill than an underrotated Quad, simply because it is a "completed" element. This makes no sense.

Any element can be defined. An underrotated jump should be treated as its own element. The skater is, after all, achieving a specific amount of rotation when such a thing happens.

[prettykeys]

I don't agree with that at all.
Under-rotated triple jump is an incomplete/unsuccessful maneuver,
whereas a fully-rotated double jump is a complete/successful one.

It's like comparing a weightlifter lifting 100kg halfway
vs. lifting 75kg all the way.

Gonna go with Blades of Passion on this one.

Besides, your analogy of his argument is flawed. He is arguing that lifting 50kg all the way is not as impressive as lifting 100kg 75% of the way (the incomplete, but more difficult element, is still greater than the full lesser element.)

Another point I would dispute is that in Weight-Lifting, it may be acceptable to score by full lifts because that's what that sport is about--lifting weights--and that's how they chose to define a "lift".

But we are discussing Figure Skating, not Ice Jumping. By that measure, we want to promote artistic programs where jumping elements are incorporated and constitute a great deal of the athletic component. A well-executed but slightly underrotated triple jump adds to both the technical and artistic levels of a Figure Skating program.