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Thread: Ladies LP

  1. #511
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    Quote Originally Posted by i love to skate View Post
    I am in the camp that thinks triple jumps which are underrotated should be considered a double.
    I'd be perfectly fine with that- IF jumps that resulted in a fall resulted in no points at all.

  2. #512
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    Quote Originally Posted by R.D. View Post
    I'd be perfectly fine with that- IF jumps that resulted in a fall resulted in no points at all.
    Why no points at all?

  3. #513
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    Quote Originally Posted by i love to skate View Post
    Why no points at all?
    To me (YMMV!), a fall on a jump is a failed jump. Therefore, I feel it deserves no credit at all. It's the one glaring error in a routine that clearly disrupts the flow of a program. Underrotated jumps (IMO!), not so much.

  4. #514
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    Quote Originally Posted by R.D. View Post
    To me (YMMV!), a fall on a jump is a failed jump. Therefore, I feel it deserves no credit at all. It's the one glaring error in a routine that clearly disrupts the flow of a program. Underrotated jumps (IMO!), not so much.
    Interesting.

  5. #515
    Skating is art, if you let it be. Blades of Passion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by i love to skate View Post
    If your friends already love music and dance and have no interest in skating then I would say they will never be interested in it . Skating is the perfect combination of the those two worlds and if they can't see that it won't matter what you say or how you "sell it". COP or not.
    This is a non-argument. The discussion is that CoP is hindering the art of skating, while also completely confusing fans when it comes to scoring.

    If people only see boring performances then they will probably never become fans.

    Quote Originally Posted by i love to skate View Post
    An underrotated jump is not clean though. I think that is a major part of the problem when discussions about underrotations surface.
    They certainly can be clean. If a Triple jump comes up short of rotation but the blade exits with an out-flowing edge, then it is a clean underrotated jump.

    The skater deserves a moderate deduction (not a massive deduction, which is what we currently see) in base value of the jump for the mistake they made.

    Doing a Triple Lutz (for example) with an underrotation, but a clean landing, shows more skill than doing a double Lutz. This point is not debateable; it is a fact.

    There is not a skater in existence who can land an underrotated Triple Lutz, but not land a Double Lutz.

    There IS, however, an ocean of skaters who can only land a Double Lutz.

    In competition, skaters are graded on the skill of what they do. An underrotated Triple Lutz displays greater skill than a Double Lutz and deserves to be worth more.

    Quote Originally Posted by i love to skate View Post
    I am in the camp that thinks triple jumps which are underrotated should be considered a double.
    Why? Tell me in detail why you think it is only as valuable as a double. Why do you think it is impossible for a jump to have an amount of rotation that is between 2 and 3 rotations? Do you not believe in Double Axels?

  6. #516
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blades of Passion View Post
    They certainly can be clean. If a Triple jump comes up short of rotation but the blade exits with an out-flowing edge, then it is a clean underrotated jump.
    It may look clean but it is not. Underrotation is an error. Just like a fall, a step out, a two footed landing, an overration, and a hand down. They are all mistakes which deserve a deduction or a downgrade. It doesn't matter how pretty it looks - I find an underrotation even more annoying than a fall because I can see when the blade finished the rotation on the ice.

    Quote Originally Posted by Blades of Passion View Post
    Why? Tell me in detail why you think it is only as valuable as a double. Why do you think it is impossible for a jump to have an amount of rotation that is between 2 and 3 rotations? Do you not believe in Double Axels?
    Maybe it is the fact that I coach and judge but I despise seeing poor technique on jumps. The skaters that get called have been underrotating for years. They show little signs of fixing the jumps and continue to do it over and over again in competition.

    If you lessen the point deduction the skaters are going to be less motivated to fix their technique than they already are. It is much harder to do three full rotations and fall - that takes much more effort. The Axel debate does not contribute to this discussion because it has an entirely different take off - it has nothing to do with underrotations.
    Last edited by i love to skate; 11-02-2009 at 08:48 PM.

  7. #517
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    Coaches at my rink get more excited when their skaters fall after completing the rotation on a jump, then when their skaters UR a jump but land "clean" (which is impossible, IMO, but that's another story).

  8. #518
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    Quote Originally Posted by i love to skate View Post
    It may look clean but it is not. Underrotation is an error. Just like a fall, a step out, a two footed landing, an overration, and a hand down. They are all mistakes which deserve a deduction or a downgrade.
    By the definition of what an underrotated jump is, the landing is clean if there are no bobbles.

    Turning a Triple jump into a Double is also an error (a larger error). That doesn't mean the jump can't have a clean landing.

    It doesn't matter what point a jump lands at...the landing can still be clean if the blade is flowing outward.

    Obviously it is easier to have a great landing if you are landing backwards in relation to where the thrust of the jump started, though.

    Quote Originally Posted by i love to skate View Post
    I find an underrotation even more annoying than a fall because I can see when the blade finished the rotation on the ice.
    You also seem to be confused between jumps that are slightly underrotated short of the 1/4 turn mark and a whole 1/2 turn underrotated. If a jump is THAT underrotated then the landing is probably not going to have a good outflowing edge (although it is possible)...which would be cause for -GOE to the jump in addition to the underrotation penalty.

    Quote Originally Posted by i love to skate View Post
    The Axel debate does not contribute to this discussion because it has an entirely different take off - it has nothing to do with underrotations.
    Actually, it is certainly part of this debate. A jump can take off at any given point. From wherever a jump takes off, it is going to rotate a certain amount of degrees in a circle.

    Whatever point it starts at and whatever point it stops doesn't matter (it terms of geometry). If you draw a line from the top of a circle all the way around, you've traced 360 degrees. If you draw a line from the bottom of a circle all the way around, you've still traced 360 degrees.

    Triples that are underrotated are still achieving a specific amount of rotation.

    Quote Originally Posted by i love to skate View Post
    If you lessen the point deduction the skaters are going to be less motivated to fix their technique than they already are.
    Untrue. You continue to ignore exact examples I've used and only argue within your own realm of theory.

    So, I'll say it again...double-footed jumps give you points. Why is it then that we don't see skaters purposefully trying to double-foot jumps and thus give themselves more insurance on the landing?

    Because you lose points in relation to what you could have gotten if you do such a thing. Which means you probably won't win. If skaters try to do underrotated jumps, they are simply going to keep losing to the skaters who fully rotate them.

    In addition to that, if a skater doesn't have some ability to do the actual Triple, they aren't going to be able to try and underrotate a Triple but still land cleanly all the time. Other problems on the landing are likely to occur.

    Only a skater who has a decent level of control over a Triple can actually land an underrotated version of that jump cleanly on a consistent basis. Which is what we see happen with top skaters when it comes to underrotating jumps - Miki Ando's 3Lutz-3Loop combination, for example. She doesn't try to underrotate the 3Loop. She is capable of doing the jump but sometimes her momentum isn't exactly correct, and thus the landing comes up a little short but the jump still exits cleanly on the landing.

    If someone who has never landed a 3Lutz-3Loop in their life goes out there every competition and tries to do a 3Lutz into an underrotated 3Loop, they are likely going to have problems on their landings. Which means they are losing more points. Which means it is pointless to try and do a 3Lutz/ underrotated 3Loop combination and nobody would attempt it.

    Also, it is uncomfortable to make mistakes. Skaters want to skate the best they can. They don't want to try and double-foot jumps or try and underrotate jumps (in competition at least...doing such a thing to practice and get a feel for the Triple is different). They want to land perfect Triple jumps.

    Quote Originally Posted by i love to skate View Post
    It is much harder to do three full rotations and fall - that takes much more effort.
    That is incorrect. Skaters can get rotation if that is the only objective. It's not that hard to rotate a Triple (once you are at a certain level) if you don't have to think about the landing at all...you can just throw yourself into the rotation.

    Coming up slightly short of rotation but completely controlling the landing shows a greater degree of skill.

    ----

    Quote Originally Posted by skatingbc View Post
    Coaches at my rink get more excited when their skaters fall after completing the rotation on a jump, then when their skaters UR a jump but land "clean"
    Well, yes, because it shows that the skater is learning how to feel the jump and get a sense of the rotation.

    Those skaters who are constantly falling on Triples would not be able to consistently land a clean, slightly underrotated version of the Triple, though.

  9. #519
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blades of Passion View Post
    Well, yes, because it shows that the skater is learning how to feel the jump and get a sense of the rotation.

    Those skaters who are constantly falling on Triples would not be able to consistently land a clean, slightly underrotated version of the Triple, though.
    Actually, they can do underrotated versions of the jumps they are attempting. The point is that they would actually like to be able to do the jump correctly with full rotation. For some skaters, doing UR triple jumps is actually very easy. It's getting that extra 1/2-1/3 of a rotation that is the most difficult.

  10. #520
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    Quote Originally Posted by skatingbc View Post
    Actually, they can do underrotated versions of the jumps they are attempting.
    Not consistently clean, I am betting.

    Quote Originally Posted by skatingbc View Post
    For some skaters, doing UR triple jumps is actually very easy. It's getting that extra 1/2-1/3 of a rotation that is the most difficult.
    If a skater needs an extra 1/2 of a rotation for their attempt at a Triple to be ratified, then it's not even an underrotated Triple. It is just an overrotated Double.

    An underrotated Triple = missing 1/4 of rotation at most from what is considered to be a ratifiable Triple.

  11. #521
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blades of Passion View Post
    Not consistently clean, I am betting.
    IMO, there's so such thing as a consistently clean UR jump. But in this case, the problem is that they are consistently landed UR jumps, that I suppose would be clean otherwise.



    If a skater needs an extra 1/2 of a rotation for their attempt at a Triple to be ratified, then it's not even an underrotated Triple. It is just an overrotated Double.

    An underrotated Triple = missing 1/4 of rotation at most from what is considered to be a ratifiable Triple.
    I mean 1/2 rotation from landing completely backwards. This 1/2-1/3 of a rotation includes the 1/4 rotation that is allowed for a jump to be ratified as a completely rotated triple, so I guess it's really just that extra 1/4 rotation that the skaters can have the most trouble with.

  12. #522
    Skating is art, if you let it be. Blades of Passion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skatingbc View Post
    the problem is that they are consistently landed UR jumps, that I suppose would be clean otherwise.
    If the landing is really consistently good enough that the skater wouldn't get -GOE for the jump, then they are capable of rotating the Triple sufficiently enough for it to not get downgraded. It means they are being safer in terms of trying to rotate so that they can feel more secure with the landing. They are scared of falling, so they pull less hard (or don't enter the jump with enough speed, or whatever it is they are holding back on).

    Hopefully they can continue to work on the jump and start landing a complete Triple consistently. Otherwise, even if UR jumps were worth more, they would never reach the World Champion level that everyone dreams of.

  13. #523
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blades of Passion View Post
    at least an extra 1/2 rotation (which would be the minimum required for it to be defined as an UR Triple)
    It looks like you really don't know what you want, so let me just ask you three questions:

    According to your suggestion,

    1) How would you score a jump with 2.6 rotations?

    2) How would you score a jump with 2.4 rotations?

    3) How would you score a jump with 2.2 rotations?

  14. #524
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blades of Passion View Post
    Actually, it is certainly part of this debate. A jump can take off at any given point. From wherever a jump takes off, it is going to rotate a certain amount of degrees in a circle.

    Whatever point it starts at and whatever point it stops doesn't matter (it terms of geometry). If you draw a line from the top of a circle all the way around, you've traced 360 degrees. If you draw a line from the bottom of a circle all the way around, you've still traced 360 degrees.

    Triples that are underrotated are still achieving a specific amount of rotation.

    Untrue. You continue to ignore exact examples I've used and only argue within your own realm of theory.

    So, I'll say it again...double-footed jumps give you points. Why is it then that we don't see skaters purposefully trying to double-foot jumps and thus give themselves more insurance on the landing?

    Because you lose points in relation to what you could have gotten if you do such a thing. Which means you probably won't win. If skaters try to do underrotated jumps, they are simply going to keep losing to the skaters who fully rotate them.

    In addition to that, if a skater doesn't have some ability to do the actual Triple, they aren't going to be able to try and underrotate a Triple but still land cleanly all the time. Other problems on the landing are likely to occur.

    Only a skater who has a decent level of control over a Triple can actually land an underrotated version of that jump cleanly on a consistent basis. Which is what we see happen with top skaters when it comes to underrotating jumps - Miki Ando's 3Lutz-3Loop combination, for example. She doesn't try to underrotate the 3Loop. She is capable of doing the jump but sometimes her momentum isn't exactly correct, and thus the landing comes up a little short but the jump still exits cleanly on the landing.

    If someone who has never landed a 3Lutz-3Loop in their life goes out there every competition and tries to do a 3Lutz into an underrotated 3Loop, they are likely going to have problems on their landings. Which means they are losing more points. Which means it is pointless to try and do a 3Lutz/ underrotated 3Loop combination and nobody would attempt it.

    Also, it is uncomfortable to make mistakes. Skaters want to skate the best they can. They don't want to try and double-foot jumps or try and underrotate jumps (in competition at least...doing such a thing to practice and get a feel for the Triple is different). They want to land perfect Triple jumps.

    That is incorrect. Skaters can get rotation if that is the only objective. It's not that hard to rotate a Triple (once you are at a certain level) if you don't have to think about the landing at all...you can just throw yourself into the rotation.

    Coming up slightly short of rotation but completely controlling the landing shows a greater degree of skill.

    ----

    Well, yes, because it shows that the skater is learning how to feel the jump and get a sense of the rotation.

    Those skaters who are constantly falling on Triples would not be able to consistently land a clean, slightly underrotated version of the Triple, though.
    You know it would be a lot easier to have a discussion about this if your posts weren't filled with statements such as "you are confused" "this is untrue" or "this is incorrect". I have over twenty years of skating experience so I think I have a certain understanding of jumps, technique, and errors. If you don't think skaters try and underrotate a jump I don't know what to tell you. It is easier to do so they continue doing the same technique and cross their fingers that it won't get downgraded.

    I am not confused about an underrotated jump being done (yes even when it is 1/4underrotated I can tell) and I also know it is easier to underrotate a jump than to fully rotate one (I've done both).
    Last edited by i love to skate; 11-03-2009 at 10:27 AM.

  15. #525
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    Without getting into the details of this heavy debate, I just would like to point out that it's important to separate motivation from execution in judgment.

    To me, arguing that "skaters will have less motivation to fix and do a completely rotated 3 jump" is not a good argument for disproportionately high penalties. I BELIEVE this statement is true. I believe it is much more difficult to consistently execute a fully rotated, clean triple jump than it is to consistently execute an underrotated clean almost-triple jump. Some skaters might accept the smaller deductions on underrotated jumps (if they were instated) and prefer to work on other elements of their technique/presentation...or even just wait and hope that a favourite falters. I believe some incidences of underrotation are unintended; and I believe some are deliberate because the skaters are scared to push that far (because they aren't able to do the full triple cleanly--consistently, or at all.)

    I believe rewards and penalties should be dealt according to fairness and impartial judgment based on what is seen, not looking into whether the specific skater intentionally did something or as a deterrant/incentive for future outlooks.

    (I know now all people will agree with me on this but the reason I suggest this is because I don't believe anyone is telepathic or has the gift of psychic foresight.)

    I also believe that lesser penalties on clean underrotated 3jumps will not remove all incentives to strive for the fully rotated (no one was arguing that, anyway).

    In any case, motivation to fix underrotation should be huge right now, which is well and good, although I do not think the current penalties are fair as applied to underrotation. If a skater is scared or unable to do the full rotation, then let them cut their losses in points. Spectators can still enjoy the overall presentation.

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