Tarasova must go if Mao wants shot at Olympic glory
- Thread starter japanice
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- Oct 19, 2009
I'm just going to go ahead and plagiarize myself... 
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Something seems amiss in Jack Gallagher's article. The one posted by summervie in another thread ( http://maoasada.logu2.com/mao-chat-f5/tatiana-tarasova-s-interview-t528.htm ) seems far more insightful into the decision-making factors Tarasova and Mao considered.
For example, Tat stated in the interview that it was the JSF's decision to schedule Mao consecutively in TEB and CoR. Russia was probably a must, leaving the TEB choice as questionable (although I am guessing that the JSF wanted Mao to have an early head-to-head with YuNa.)
Also, what may have seemed like an "over-reliance on Mao's triple axel" makes a lot more sense when Tat confirms that Mao was able to do them in her practices. Tat's interview states that she is considering substituting the second 3axel in the FP with a 3-3, which could handily yield higher marks anyway, so I feel that Tarasova is not the problem (although I had my doubts, too, and which I now feel bad for.)
I think it would be unwise to scapegoat Tarasova. Some of the more unfortunate aspects of her working with Mao (the Japan-Russia travelling arrangements, the Grand Prix dates) were clearly out of her control. MikiAndoFans#1's suggestion of having someone possibly come in and help out may work, and wouldn't require dumping Tat completely, as bringing on someone totally different and forcing a drastic change might make things worse for Mao.
Also, I am sorry, but:
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Something seems amiss in Jack Gallagher's article. The one posted by summervie in another thread ( http://maoasada.logu2.com/mao-chat-f5/tatiana-tarasova-s-interview-t528.htm ) seems far more insightful into the decision-making factors Tarasova and Mao considered.
For example, Tat stated in the interview that it was the JSF's decision to schedule Mao consecutively in TEB and CoR. Russia was probably a must, leaving the TEB choice as questionable (although I am guessing that the JSF wanted Mao to have an early head-to-head with YuNa.)
Thus, this paragraph doesn't quite follow.
Also, what may have seemed like an "over-reliance on Mao's triple axel" makes a lot more sense when Tat confirms that Mao was able to do them in her practices. Tat's interview states that she is considering substituting the second 3axel in the FP with a 3-3, which could handily yield higher marks anyway, so I feel that Tarasova is not the problem (although I had my doubts, too, and which I now feel bad for.)
I think it would be unwise to scapegoat Tarasova. Some of the more unfortunate aspects of her working with Mao (the Japan-Russia travelling arrangements, the Grand Prix dates) were clearly out of her control. MikiAndoFans#1's suggestion of having someone possibly come in and help out may work, and wouldn't require dumping Tat completely, as bringing on someone totally different and forcing a drastic change might make things worse for Mao.
Also, I am sorry, but:
This quote seems to suggest that Arakawa's success lay in her leaving Tarasova for Morozov. But not only does it not quantify how much Tarasova may have helped her...personally I feel that it was a combination of Arakawa doing well and her opponents falling apart. So that is a really bad argument Gallagher is making for his case.
- Joined
- May 15, 2009
Is there a public petition one can sign to urge Mao to find another coach? I have a feeling that it would be quite popular.
And a petiton for her to get some better costumes
- Joined
- Feb 7, 2009
I'm just going to go ahead and plagiarize myself...
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Something seems amiss in Jack Gallagher's article. The one posted by summervie in another thread ( http://maoasada.logu2.com/mao-chat-f5/tatiana-tarasova-s-interview-t528.htm ) seems far more insightful into the decision-making factors Tarasova and Mao considered.
For example, Tat stated in the interview that it was the JSF's decision to schedule Mao consecutively in TEB and CoR. Russia was probably a must, leaving the TEB choice as questionable (although I am guessing that the JSF wanted Mao to have an early head-to-head with YuNa.)
Thus, this paragraph doesn't quite follow.
Also, what may have seemed like an "over-reliance on Mao's triple axel" makes a lot more sense when Tat confirms that Mao was able to do them in her practices. Tat's interview states that she is considering substituting the second 3axel in the FP with a 3-3, which could handily yield higher marks anyway, so I feel that Tarasova is not the problem (although I had my doubts, too, and which I now feel bad for.)
I think it would be unwise to scapegoat Tarasova. Some of the more unfortunate aspects of her working with Mao (the Japan-Russia travelling arrangements, the Grand Prix dates) were clearly out of her control. MikiAndoFans#1's suggestion of having someone possibly come in and help out may work, and wouldn't require dumping Tat completely, as bringing on someone totally different and forcing a drastic change might make things worse for Mao.
ITA. :thumbsup: I feel that while Tarasova may not be the best match with Mao as a coach, I also think she deserves credit for being a pretty damn good coach and that the troubles plaguing Mao right now are not necessarily stemming from TAT. When I read interviews or press conference releases, I get the impression that Mao is too fixated on her 3As; it wasn't TAT who put the 3A in her SP in the first place, it was Mao. She's under some kind of illusion that if her axels are landed, everything else will magically fall into place, and she's not taking the damage (yes, damage. that's what I consider it now, the way that she's basically lowering the content to make space for the 3As) that the 3As are inflicting on her program into account.
Tarasova's a smart coach, she sees what's been happening in the recent competitions and I don't think she would want to rely on an element that is all too plainly undependable. That said, I have ISSUES with the music she picked out for Mao (though, again, it was Mao's own decision to go with the heavier Rachmaninoff piece) and I feel that right now, TAT is not the coach Mao needs (regardless of what she may want, even).
Tremendous athlete. Tremendous coach. Sometimes does not always add up though. Shame the pressure of this Olympic year. Does anyone doubt that Mao would have been so deserving of a wonderful Olympics in 2006 were she only old enough? I do not dare underestimate either of them. Both have genius. I have confidence that the Mao will come back stronger from these disappointments and Tarasova will know how to help her find her way.
I see Gallagher is up to his usual tricks again! Yeah, he has an agenda and wants everything to fit into the story he tries to tell, nothing new there...But you could argue that TAT has an agenda as well. She doesn't want to take the blame for things going wrong. So even though she didn't object beforehand that the dates set were too close, now it's all the JSF's fault.
I personally believe that the JSF is always to blame somehow. OTOH it's undeniable that at the moment something is not working. I think it's a fatal combination of many things. So only blaming TAT misses the larger context. I sound like a broken, very annoying record, I know, but why is this a part-time coaching arrangement? Why is there no jump specialist around (that we know of, and if someone exists, he/she is doing a woeful job IMO)? Why are all her jumps falling apart? Who decided that it was a good idea to rework all her jumps at once? Why the crazy obsession with the axel? Why the heavy music and the ugly costumes? And who thought it was a good idea to recycle an old program in an Olympic year?
So there are quite some issues that need to be adressed. Of course doing it the way Gallagher does is not very productive, but he thrives on scandal and provocation. That's his style and in some ways his job. That he saw an opening to write this sort of article only shows that the situation has deteriorated quite a bit.
Yeah, he has an agenda and wants everything to fit into the story he tries to tell, nothing new there...But you could argue that TAT has an agenda as well. She doesn't want to take the blame for things going wrong. So even though she didn't object beforehand that the dates set were too close, now it's all the JSF's fault. I personally believe that the JSF is always to blame somehow.
OTOH it's undeniable that at the moment something is not working. I think it's a fatal combination of many things. So only blaming TAT misses the larger context. I sound like a broken, very annoying record, I know, but why is this a part-time coaching arrangement? Why is there no jump specialist around (that we know of, and if someone exists, he/she is doing a woeful job IMO)? Why are all her jumps falling apart? Who decided that it was a good idea to rework all her jumps at once? Why the crazy obsession with the axel? Why the heavy music and the ugly costumes? And who thought it was a good idea to recycle an old program in an Olympic year? So there are quite some issues that need to be adressed. Of course doing it the way Gallagher does is not very productive, but he thrives on scandal and provocation. That's his style and in some ways his job. That he saw an opening to write this sort of article only shows that the situation has deteriorated quite a bit.
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- May 26, 2009
It seems to me that the decisions governing her programs, costumes, music, jumps, etc., are coming from Mao and not TAT. TAT has come across in interviews as willing to make some changes, where Mao has not. If Mao left TAT and continued to insist upon doing things the way she's been doing them, nothing might change. What is unknown here is how Mao might respond to a new coach and situation. It could make her more open to changes and new ways of doing things.
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- Jul 28, 2003
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...for me.....better music.And a petiton for her to get some better costumes
http://search.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/sp20090607it.html
This article from June says that it was Mao's camp who decided to take part in Grand Prix events in Paris and Moscow.
And now Tarasova says that she Moao's camp didn't ask for Paris and Moscow. I don't know who I should believe.
Anyway, Mao is in a very difficult position. We were surprised when Carolina Kostner moved to Frank Caroll and everyone kept saying that it was too late and may have detrimental effect on her performances at The Olympics.
Now, there are about four months left to the Olympics and Mao is in very difficult situation indeed. There is no good solution.
If she stays with Tarasova, there is little chances that she will be able to fix the issues that she has to fix (seeing that she has been working with Tarasova for about one year and a half already, and instead of improving she is going downhill).
But if she sacks Tarasova and finds another coach now, how can she know she made a right decision? Four short months is too little time to get used to new coaching situation. And after let say a month she may realise that a new coach was not a good choice either. And even if the new coach is the perfect coach and she spends all days and nights on ice trying to fix things what needs to be fixed and then solidify new technique, she likely will not be able to manage to do it in FOUR months. And then she shows up at the Olympics, skates terribly, and everyone on the forum will be outraged and will ask: 'Why did Mao change coaches so late in the season? She should have stay with Tarasova!'.
Like during events in Paris and Moskow everyone seemed to be taken aback that she's going for 3A-2T in her short programme, conveniently forgeting that after WTT almost all posters on many forums insisted that that is exactly what she needs to do.
In her situation, there are no right choices.
She stays with Tarasova, it's likely to be a disasterous decision.
She finds another coach, it very well may be disasterous as well.
I never liked Gallagher. His articles always seemed a little biased, and sometimes more that a little mean to onther than Japanese skaters.
I never liked Tarasova, never liked what she has done to Mao regarding the competitive aspects of her skating (because, yes, she gave her two nice exhibition programmes, didn't she) and I don't think it's going to do Mao any good being coached by her.
But she made her decision. While on the skating forum everybody kept wrtiting 'fire Tarasiova' that thought did not seem to even cross Mao's mind. She wants to stay with her. In four months she may look at her Olympic medal and think 'Thank God, I stayed with Tarasova-sensei' or she may think about her mistakes-ridden performances and think that it was the worst decision in her skating career.
People has written her off too quickly. No one knows what will happen in Vancouver.
This article from June says that it was Mao's camp who decided to take part in Grand Prix events in Paris and Moscow.
And now Tarasova says that she Moao's camp didn't ask for Paris and Moscow. I don't know who I should believe.
Anyway, Mao is in a very difficult position. We were surprised when Carolina Kostner moved to Frank Caroll and everyone kept saying that it was too late and may have detrimental effect on her performances at The Olympics.
Now, there are about four months left to the Olympics and Mao is in very difficult situation indeed. There is no good solution.
If she stays with Tarasova, there is little chances that she will be able to fix the issues that she has to fix (seeing that she has been working with Tarasova for about one year and a half already, and instead of improving she is going downhill).
But if she sacks Tarasova and finds another coach now, how can she know she made a right decision? Four short months is too little time to get used to new coaching situation. And after let say a month she may realise that a new coach was not a good choice either. And even if the new coach is the perfect coach and she spends all days and nights on ice trying to fix things what needs to be fixed and then solidify new technique, she likely will not be able to manage to do it in FOUR months. And then she shows up at the Olympics, skates terribly, and everyone on the forum will be outraged and will ask: 'Why did Mao change coaches so late in the season? She should have stay with Tarasova!'.
Like during events in Paris and Moskow everyone seemed to be taken aback that she's going for 3A-2T in her short programme, conveniently forgeting that after WTT almost all posters on many forums insisted that that is exactly what she needs to do.
In her situation, there are no right choices.
She stays with Tarasova, it's likely to be a disasterous decision.
She finds another coach, it very well may be disasterous as well.
I never liked Gallagher. His articles always seemed a little biased, and sometimes more that a little mean to onther than Japanese skaters.
I never liked Tarasova, never liked what she has done to Mao regarding the competitive aspects of her skating (because, yes, she gave her two nice exhibition programmes, didn't she) and I don't think it's going to do Mao any good being coached by her.
But she made her decision. While on the skating forum everybody kept wrtiting 'fire Tarasiova' that thought did not seem to even cross Mao's mind. She wants to stay with her. In four months she may look at her Olympic medal and think 'Thank God, I stayed with Tarasova-sensei' or she may think about her mistakes-ridden performances and think that it was the worst decision in her skating career.
People has written her off too quickly. No one knows what will happen in Vancouver.
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2003
I think we might be off on the wrong track, trying to overanalyze what is going wrong with Mao's skating. Kimmie Meissner landed a triple Axel at U.S. Nationals at age 15, came fifth at the 2006 Olympics at age 16, and won the World championship the same year. Four years later she was out of the sport.
Tara Lipinski won the U.S. and World championships at age 14 and the Olympic gold medal at 15. By age 19 she was done, even as a show skater.
Nothing lasts forever. At age 15 Asada was perhaps the best skater in the world, beating the entire Olympic podium (Arakawa, Cohen and Slutskaya) in the 2006 Grand Prix. Now she is 19. Nothing is forever.
Tara Lipinski won the U.S. and World championships at age 14 and the Olympic gold medal at 15. By age 19 she was done, even as a show skater.
Nothing lasts forever. At age 15 Asada was perhaps the best skater in the world, beating the entire Olympic podium (Arakawa, Cohen and Slutskaya) in the 2006 Grand Prix. Now she is 19. Nothing is forever.
Possible scenario:
Team Mao asked for Russia and Japan (I think I actually heard it somewhere that Mao herself wanted COR and NHK), but when JSF was on the negotiation table, France was very insistant that they want Mao since they want to hold a dream women's competition with Kim and Asada against each other, and of course, they said they will offer something good in return (for ex: Hey, we will let Oda come here. He will very possibly medal! How about that?....With hindsight, simply bad bargain.
) So JSF asked Mao if she minds competing at TEB (and if the article above is reliable, when JSF asked Mao, they already knew Kim will be at TEB), and Mao said "well, let's do it! I'm not afraid of anyone!"Back to a more serious tone. The whole Mao situation is simply mind-baffling and frustrating :banging: I hope the very best for her. I hope the problems with her jumps are just a temporary mental thing.
Possible scenario:
Team Mao asked for Russia and Japan (I think I actually heard it somewhere that Mao herself wanted COR and NHK), but when JSF was on the negotiation table, France was very insistant that they want Mao since they want to hold a dream women's competition with Kim and Asada against each other, and of course, they said they will offer something good in return (for ex: Hey, we will let Oda come here. He will very possibly medal! How about that?....With hindsight, simply bad bargain.
IMO, a more possible scenario was:
Mao wanted COR and NHK as you said. But, Miki also wanted the two. It wouldn't be good they meet twice in GP. But, Miki is the obvious choice for NHK, so Mao had to change. And then, French fed wanted Mao as you said.
I think she improved a lot. But rules changed. I never agree the conspiracy theory about these changes, but it is nonetheless true that her 3F-3R (severer UR calls), 3A (severer UR calls), and 3Lz (edge calls) are not valued as they used to be in the 2006 season. If it is okay for her to excute Lz and 3F-3R in the way she did before, she would be so much better off. She did not need to rely on three 3As. If she could have just one 3A, it would have lessened the pressures off and increased her success rate.
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Mathman, I hope you're wrong about Asada being past her prime. Certainly the examples you chose give me the shivers, but something in me rebels in thinking of 15-year-olds as the peak of skating achievement. From what I know, the end of Lipinski's skating career was caused largely by a serious hip injury, and that is certainly one of the increased risks in this era of jump skating. I don't know what Meissner's combination of obstacles is, but injuries are in the mix for her. So I will venture to disagree with you on this point, though I generally agree with everything you post.
Although I regretted that Asada didn't get the chance to compete in 2006, I was deeply pleased when all three of the ladies on the podium at Torino turned out to be skaters in their twenties. Shizuka's victory was especially satisfying to witness, because she was on about her third life, skatingwise.
Though Kwan didn't make it to these Olympics, she had not only longevity but artistic growth after her mid-teens--just think of that magnificent period from about 1999 to 2002! Likewise, Kim seems to be on an upward track still, and she's Asada's age almost exactly.
As for Asada herself, she has maintained her physical abilities--soft knees and strength--in a way that allows me to hope she can recoup her skating skills. Whatever demons are haunting her (including imperfect technique that no longer works after her growth spurt), I don't think she's lost her mojo forever. She may not get it back this year, but I can't believe that this remarkable talent has just evaporated. While I love and admire YuNa, Asada has a unique musicality, and recent skating has been at its best when both these ladies are at their peak.
Although I regretted that Asada didn't get the chance to compete in 2006, I was deeply pleased when all three of the ladies on the podium at Torino turned out to be skaters in their twenties. Shizuka's victory was especially satisfying to witness, because she was on about her third life, skatingwise.
Though Kwan didn't make it to these Olympics, she had not only longevity but artistic growth after her mid-teens--just think of that magnificent period from about 1999 to 2002! Likewise, Kim seems to be on an upward track still, and she's Asada's age almost exactly.
As for Asada herself, she has maintained her physical abilities--soft knees and strength--in a way that allows me to hope she can recoup her skating skills. Whatever demons are haunting her (including imperfect technique that no longer works after her growth spurt), I don't think she's lost her mojo forever. She may not get it back this year, but I can't believe that this remarkable talent has just evaporated. While I love and admire YuNa, Asada has a unique musicality, and recent skating has been at its best when both these ladies are at their peak.
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- Oct 24, 2009
Another example of a young skater peaking early and fizzling out was Oksana Baiul. However, I don't think Asada fits the profile of some of these examples since most of these early flame outs were at least partially due to injuries. She seem to be very lucky in terms of injuries. Since she says her issues are mental, those should be easier to overcome than physical injuries. I much as I hate to say it, we don't even know how longer even Yuna will be skating. Yuna has already suffered many injuries and probably won't skate much beyond the Vancouver games. I actually think Asada will have a longer career than Kim and current funk may just be a bump in the road for her. This experience may even be a great learning experience for her growth as a skater and an artist.
Yes, I agree. What you said is a more possible scenario
So maybe JSF didn't want Mao and Miki meet twice at the GP events, and since the French federation asked for Mao and Mao herself didn't object to going there (now that I think about it, who would object to going to Paris! ), they just sent her there. But in hindsight, simply a bad idea (it's all speculation, but still). If Mao were at her best, all would be good, but the fact is she wasn't at TEB, which might result in her loss of confidence and her poor performance at COR.
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