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Thread: Ladies LP 2:00 AM Eastern Time Saturday

  1. #286
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    Quote Originally Posted by Medusa View Post
    The 3T of the 2A-3T you can barely see because of the camera angle, no way we can say anything about rotation there.

    And the solo Triple Toeloop was so underrotated, I rewatched it on TV Asashi with high qualitiy. No question to me. Alright, I can't believe I did this again. But I made a picture - here. From the TV Asashi broadcast. In the first picture you see the moment where she should take off for the Toeloop. Her freeleg is already one quarter prerotated, but lots of skaters do it. The second picture is very shortly before the take-off. The ice is white, but I think you can clearly see that the blade of the left foot is completely on the ice. So when she actually takes off, she already rotated half a rotation on the ice. The landing was one quarter revolution, perhaps a little less short. But in my opinion this Triple Toeloop is a perfect Toe Axel.

    I checked other skater's toeloops, just to be on the safe side, e.g. Kim's. They don't take off like that.

    What kind of nonsense were you talking about with Suzuki? She is not attractive enough to be a star? Huh? I don't get that.
    This is so pointless and angering. It seems inappropriate to do things like this unless you know what you're talking about. What you've shown pictured is a perfectly normal triple toe-loop take-off. It's obvious that you didn't check other skater's jumps because the toe loop takes off forward whether it's a single double or triple.

  2. #287
    Banned janetfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oleada View Post
    I think Suzuki has an amazing innate musicality that a lot of ladies would be jealous of.
    ITA.
    I don't think this should matter or have anything to do with marking but I think Akiko is very cute and so animated and attractive on the ice.

    I never considered how pretty she is in a traditional sense because her skating and personality won me over. I am sure the judges noticed this and since she won the competition it sounds a little ridiculous to think her looks hurt her score.
    Last edited by janetfan; 11-01-2009 at 11:43 AM.

  3. #288
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    I also think that Akiko is very animated and attractive on the ice.

    I especially love the interaction she has with her coach before she takes the ice--I've never seen such joy and enthusiasm like that from a skater.

  4. #289
    L'art pour l'art Medusa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kunstrijdster View Post
    Please, can someone enlighten me as to what constiutes a Toe-Axel.

    Is it not the pre rotation of half a turn and the skater taking of forward before the pick leaves the ice?

    If every toe-loop takes of forward, does that make every toe-loop a toe-axel?

    I second this question. If that's not a Toe-Axel - what is a Toe-Axel?

  5. #290
    Rink Rat i love to skate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kunstrijdster View Post
    Please, can someone enlighten me as to what constiutes a Toe-Axel.

    Is it not the pre rotation of half a turn and the skater taking of forward before the pick leaves the ice?

    If every toe-loop takes of forward, does that make every toe-loop a toe-axel?

    It's not so much the pick as it is the body turning forwards before you jump. Here is an example of a toe axel from Kimmie:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oz8R717zRZw

    Compared with a proper toe loop from Joannie. Her body does not turn forwards before she jumps:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wJsZgrbG1jU

  6. #291
    L'art pour l'art Medusa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by i love to skate View Post
    It's not so much the pick as it is the body turning forwards before you jump. Here is an example of a toe axel from Kimmie:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oz8R717zRZw

    Compared with a proper toe loop from Joannie. Her body does not turn before she jumps:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wJsZgrbG1jU
    So, my dearly honoured Canadian friend, is Nagasu's jump a Toe-Axel then or not? Because it looks like Kimmie's jump, not like Joannie's. And her body is definitely turning forwards before she jumps. Enlighten us, please!

  7. #292
    Rink Rat i love to skate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Medusa View Post
    So, my dearly honoured Canadian friend, is Nagasu's jump a Toe-Axel then or not? Because it looks like Kimmie's jump, not like Joannie's. And her body is definitely turning forwards before she jumps. Enlighten us, please!
    In my opinion, I would say her toe loop is okay. In her double axel triple toe combination her body follows through after she picks in and her body does not turn forwards. There is no jerkiness - like on Kimmie's jump. You can clearly see Kimmie plant the toe pick, twist it around, and jump forwards off of it.

    Here's Mirai's performance:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qH7tO4gfOxw

    If you watch the combination at 6:03, you can see the fluidness of her body and pick.

    If you watch Kimmie's after I think you can see a difference (same clip as before):
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qH7tO4gfOxw

  8. #293
    L'art pour l'art Medusa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by i love to skate View Post
    In my opinion, I would say her toe loop is okay. In her double axel triple toe combination her body follows through after she picks in and her body does not turn forwards. There is no jerkiness - like on Kimmie's jump. You can clearly see Kimmie plant the toe pick, twist it around, and jump forwards off of it.

    Here's Mirai's performance:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qH7tO4gfOxw

    If you watch the combination at 6:03, you can see the fluidness of her body and pick.

    If you watch Kimmie's after I think you can see a difference (same clip as before):
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qH7tO4gfOxw
    Thank you very much, I can't really say that her Triple Toe looks like Rochette's or Kim's - but you are right, it looks less jerky than Kimmie's.

  9. #294
    Rink Rat i love to skate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Medusa View Post
    Thank you very much, I can't really say that her Triple Toe looks like Rochette's or Kim's - but you are right, it looks less jerky than Kimmie's.
    You're welcome

  10. #295
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    I finally got the chance to watch Suzuki's free skate. Wow! What a delight to see. I hope she retains that buoyant personality and those sharp skills through a long and productive career. One thing that took me by surprise was how fresh and new she made that old war-horse West Side Story sound and look. It's one of my favorite musicals, but even I must admit it's been done to death in skating....Yet Suzuki and her creative team have turned it around. One thing she did that I don't think I've seen before is to use the "dance at the gym" material for the footwork sequence. Her program also interprets the music, with its jazzy rhythm, rather than the downbeat dramatic characters or storyline from the musical. I think this interpretation is ideal for her personality. What a lovely addition Suzuki is to international skating! She reminds me a lot of Yuka Sato--same musicality and sense of enjoyment.

    As for the discussion of looks, to me beauty is so much broader and more varied than what is implied by some of the remarks made here, and I'm glad to see that I have company on this thread. I defy anyone to look at Suzuki and not feel happy. She may not be glamorous, but that's only one category of beauty. Certainly a lot of skaters look like beauty pageant winners or fashion magazine cover models, but that's only one way of looking good, at least to me. Expressiveness and grace of movement, as well as enthusiasm, are very important to beauty. Perfectly symmetrical features can actually be boring if the person behind the eyes doesn't connect with life. (Not that I can think of a skater who typifies that statement, but we've all seen models and starlets who do!)

  11. #296
    Rink Rat i love to skate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kunstrijdster View Post
    Thanks i love to skate for the videos and explanation Kimmie's is pretty clear.

    But I have to admit I'm still not sure about Mirai. It was not as bad as Kimmie's but still seemed pretty forward when really leaving the ice, again not as forward as Kimmie. So that's maybe the difference between a so-so toe-loop and a real toe-axel.
    When comparing Mirai to Joannie I think it's important to note that Joannie probably has the most solid technique out there so another skater's jumps may not look as good next to hers.

  12. #297
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    I don't think I have a ever seen a "toe Axel" downgrade called on a solo toe loop. As the second jump in a combination, sometimes the skater makes almost a compete revolution on the ice before she actually gets up into the air for the second jump.

    As I recall Mao Asada had to stop doing 3Lz and 3F combinations with a 3T as the second jump for this reason, in 2005 or so.

  13. #298
    Skating is art, if you let it be. Blades of Passion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by R.D. View Post
    Although I also think she's not big in the looks department, I agree with this statement 110%. Beauty/attractiveness is anything BUT objective.
    I am talking in terms of societal norms, where beauty is definitely defined with certain guidelines.

    I personally like Suzuki a lot, and I mean no ill-will, I was simply stating my opinion of how I feel the judges may view her in comparison to other skaters.

    --------

    Quote Originally Posted by Kunstrijdster View Post
    But I have to admit I'm still not sure about Mirai. It was not as bad as Kimmie's but still seemed pretty forward when really leaving the ice.
    Again, leaving the ice forward is completely normal. That is how just about every skater executes the Loop, Salchow, and Toeloop, and seeing the Lutz/Flip/Axel leave the ice 1/2 rotation into the jump is not uncommon either.

    A toe-axel is when the skating foot (not the toe-pick foot) also stays on the ice a half-rotation into the jump. Watch Mao Asada's LP at 2005 Junior Worlds...her 3Flip-3Toe combination.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XbPbbUeQ3Kw

    That is a toe-axel.

    A different kind of toe-axel can also be when the toepick leaves the ice way past the 1/2 turn mark into the jump (this is what Kimmie did). It is not as serious of a technique issue if the jump is being full rotated, though (such as...it leaves the ice 3/4 of a rotation into the jump, but if the skater lands completely backwards or even past the mark of where the jump started, then it is fine).

    ---

    Quote Originally Posted by i love to skate View Post
    It's not so much the pick as it is the body turning forwards before you jump. Here is an example of a toe axel from Kimmie:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oz8R717zRZw

    Compared with a proper toe loop from Joannie. Her body does not turn forwards before she jumps:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wJsZgrbG1jU
    Watch Joannie's toe-pick...it leaves the ice just about 1/2 of a rotation into the jump.
    Last edited by Blades of Passion; 11-01-2009 at 02:27 PM.

  14. #299
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    I'm a huge fan of Mirai, but her 3Lo and her 3T in the 2A+3T combination seemed very obviously underrotated. I was doing PBP at FSU, and I wrote that those two looked obviously short in rotation in real time, and that a lot of the rotations were questionable in general.

    I'm rewatching the LP as I'm tying and,
    In the 2A+3T, we don't get a clear look, but the landing has that hooked looked to it that many UR jumps do. In the slow-mo, it looks like she cheated it about half a turn.
    The 3F is borderline in real time. In the replay, it looks 1/2 turn cheated.
    The camera angle is perfect for the 3Lz, and the landing is just about over a quarter turn cheated. Same for the second 3T.
    The underrotation of the 3Lo is really obvious, hence the fall.

    I don't think the caller was being unfair. Like I said, I love Mirai, and I found her performance the most enjoyable after Suzuki's but it isn't really hard to spot the under-rotations. By her look in the Kiss and Cry, I think Mirai knew that, too.

  15. #300
    L'art pour l'art Medusa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blades of Passion View Post
    I am talking in terms of societal norms, where beauty is definitely defined with certain guidelines.
    I personally like Suzuki a lot, and I mean no ill-will, I was simply stating my opinion of how I feel the judges may view her in comparison to other skaters.
    Complete bollocks.

    What societal norms? The norms in the US / Canada? The ones of Eastern Europe? The ones of Japan? The ones in Kenya? Or perhaps in Peru?

    Or do you simply mean the norms that are shoved down our throats day in day out through the media?

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