Countdown to Sasha's Return | Page 7 | Golden Skate

Countdown to Sasha's Return

Trewyn

Medalist
Joined
Dec 10, 2008
Reading all this makes me sigh; oh Ashley, why didn't you get *1* more freaking point during the GP... She'd be ahead of Leonova and a near-lock for the final... Now she can be busted out of the final by Caroline, Rachael or Alissa... These upcoming competitions are going to be nailbiters for me even though Ashley isn't in them!! Ahh, the life of a fan.

Of course; if Ashley makes the final but finishes last with a disastrous skate (nope that's not going to happen! you can skate that LP beautifully Ashley, we saw you do it at RC!); that could affect her chances to make the Olympic team in a negative way...
 

R.D.

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Reading all this makes me sigh; oh Ashley, why didn't you get *1* more freaking point during the GP... She'd be ahead of Leonova and a near-lock for the final... Now she can be busted out of the final by Caroline, Rachael or Alissa... These upcoming competitions are going to be nailbiters for me even though Ashley isn't in them!! Ahh, the life of a fan.

Of course; if Ashley makes the final but finishes last with a disastrous skate (nope that's not going to happen! you can skate that LP beautifully Ashley, we saw you do it at RC!); that could affect her chances to make the Olympic team in a negative way...

I'm fine as long as there's an American in there- it seems like the only ones that can bump Wagner out of the final are her fellow teammates...

Rachel needs to win SA, though, to be in contention for the final and that won't happen unless Yuna WD.

Zhang or Czisny winning SC has better odds, but they're still slim IMHO. Rochette is in the field and unless she bombs (definitely possible) and one or both of the above skaters knocks it out of the park (or Suzuki), she'll win.
 
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PolymerBob

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 17, 2007
Reading all this makes me sigh; oh Ashley, why didn't you get *1* more freaking point during the GP... She'd be ahead of Leonova and a near-lock for the final... Now she can be busted out of the final by Caroline, Rachael or Alissa... These upcoming competitions are going to be nailbiters for me even though Ashley isn't in them!! Ahh, the life of a fan.

Actually, Ashley and Alena both have a silver and a bronze ( the 2-3 girls). If Caroline or Alissa win SC with Joannie second, Joannie becomes another 2-3 girl. The one with the lowest score gets bumped. If it's Joannie then we have 2 U.S. ladies in the Final.

For our next argument ....... why does a skater with a gold and a 4th place win over one with a silver and a bronze? Should it be the other way? Should consistency matter? :biggrin:
 

Tango_D_R

Rinkside
Joined
Oct 24, 2009
For our next argument ....... why does a skater with a gold and a 4th place win over one with a silver and a bronze? Should it be the other way? Should consistency matter? :biggrin:

Come to think about it, that is quite confusing.. especially if they were assigned at totally different level of fields.

Duel seems to be right.
One on one battle of the blades.. man would that be interesting to watch :laugh:
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
For our next argument ....... why does a skater with a gold and a 4th place win over one with a silver and a bronze? Should it be the other way? Should consistency matter? :biggrin:

The reason it is like that is because of the history of the Grand Prix. Some time in the 1970s the North American Championship fell apart because the United States and Canada each accused the other of cheating for skaters from the host country. So Canada started up Skate Canada, and a few years later the U.S.A started Skate America. Over the years some other countries decided to get into the act.

In the early 1990s, Cinquanta decided it wold be cool to have a "championship series" in the fall (sort of like a "regular season" in sports with playoffs). The idea was that each of the major federations would host an international event, then the six winners would get together in a big showdown. This showdown became the Grand Prix Final.

By the way, the reason it wasn't called the Grand Prix in the first couple of years was that the ISU had to secure rights to this name from other sports that also had "Grand Prixes" (what is the plural of "prix?")

So that was the model. If you got first place in one of the events, then you were automatically in the final. If the same skater won two different events, then they started considering second place finishers to round out the roster. So from the beginning the preference went to the skater who got at least one gold medal on the circuit.

At one time the points went something like this. 12 for first, 9 for second, 7 for third, 5 for fourth, 4 for fifth, 3 for sixth, etc. This gave an extra bonus for first place (first plus fourth = 17 points, second plus third = 16 points.) One year Michelle Kwan qualified for the finals with only one event (Skate America 2002.)

So that is why first and fourth is considered better than second and third. Winning is everything. :biggrin:
 
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Tango_D_R

Rinkside
Joined
Oct 24, 2009
Wow.. I never knew any of this. :eek:
Thanks, MM.

I was just wondering.. back in 2002 when Kwan qualified for the finals with one event, did others not competed in two events?
I mean even if the scores had been something like you mentioned(12 for first, 9 for second, 7 for third, 5 for fourth, 4 for fifth, 3 for sixth), even 2-4 or 2-5 would outrank Kwan(12) in total points earned. Maybe only few skaters got two events back in the days?..:think:
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Really? They aren't even going to consider the results from the Grand Prix? That's a very poor decision, IMO.

Winning is everything. :biggrin:

Again, history tells the tale. The idea of the World Championship was that each country sends its champion to a big free-for-all. To be sent to the World Championship or the Olympics as the representative of your nation, you had to win the National Championship of your country first. If your country had more than one spot, then one of the also-rans at Nationals got to go, too.

That.of course, was back in the days when there were hardly any international competions, so the national championship was pretty much the only way that you could press your case that you were the best in the country and deserved to be sent to Worlds.

Anyway, over the years the United States Figure Skating Association took pride in following this rule to the letter (except for a few exceptional cases where last year's world champion had to miss nationals with an injury, or something like that.) In fact, the USFSA made this a kind of moral principle. Those other sinful federations may determine these matters by bribes and politics in smoke-filled back rooms, but the pure-hearted USFSA would have none of that. If you want to go to Worlds, you have to skate for it at Nationnals, period.

As for the Grand Prix, if you win the Eric Bompard Trophy, your reward is the Eric Bompard Trophy.

The reason that some fans (like Polymer Bob :) ) believe that things are going to be different in the future is this. Two years ago a loophole was brought to light in the bylaws of the U.S. Olympic Committee that gives the USOC ownership of all "Olympic trials." If the U.S. national figure skating championship was the sole determiner of the U.S. Olympic team in figure skating, then there was the possibiltiy that it would be classified as the "Olympic trial" in this sport, and the USFSA would lose control of the event to the USOC.

To forestall this possibility, last year the USFSA rushed through a revision of its Olympic selection procedure. U.S. Nationals will no longer be the officially designated Olympic trial event, but rather the USFSA will take into account a variety of factors. Placement at U.S. Nationals is still number one on the list, but considerations like placement at the Grand Prix Final, placement at last year's Worlds (go Lysacek!), placement at 2010 Four Continents, etc., will also -- on paper -- be considered. (That last one is a little strange because the Olympic team will surely be determined well before Four Continents.)

For Worlds the old rule still applies. Winner of U.S. Nationals goes to Worlds, period. Other spots, if any, are up for grabs.

Bottom line, it remains to be seen if anyone at the USFSA will pay attention to the supposed new rules or whether they will do as they have always done.
 
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i love to skate

Medalist
Joined
Dec 13, 2005
I could see automatically sending her if she wins and if she had tested out her programs at least once in front of international judges. This hasn't happened. What happens if she finishes second? Other skaters will have had at least two competitions to make improvements. Those skaters have a greater chance of their programs being well received by the judges than Sasha. It would also be in the best interest of the USFSA to send one of the younger girls to get Olympic experience so they are prepared for 2014.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
^ I don't really know what the big-wigs at United States Figure Skating are pondering this year. But if you look at their track record, I think most of the time they take this point of view: We have a nation-wide competition. The prize for winning this competition is a trip to the Olympics.

I do not think they are debating about something that may or may not happen four years from now, or who has or does not have feedback from ISU judges. It's a competition. Win and go to Vancouver, lose and go home.

(Of course I reserve the right to be wrong. Maybe the USFSA leaders are churning over all sorts of contingency plans even as we speak. They just didn't tell me about it. :) )
 

i love to skate

Medalist
Joined
Dec 13, 2005
I do not think they are debating about something that may or may not happen four years from now, or who has or does not have feedback from ISU judges. It's a competition. Win and go to Vancouver, lose and go home.

Well chances are that no American woman is going to win at Vancouver. IMO, I think the best thing would be to send two younger skaters who have competed this year and get them experience at the biggest competition. Many discussions are going on right now about who to send I bet. Of course I reserve the right to be wrong too :laugh:
 

wonderlen3000

Final Flight
Joined
Nov 8, 2008
Actually, Ashley and Alena both have a silver and a bronze ( the 2-3 girls). If Caroline or Alissa win SC with Joannie second, Joannie becomes another 2-3 girl. The one with the lowest score gets bumped. If it's Joannie then we have 2 U.S. ladies in the Final.

For our next argument ....... why does a skater with a gold and a 4th place win over one with a silver and a bronze? Should it be the other way? Should consistency matter? :biggrin:

At this stage, both Ashley and Alena are in for GPF. Flatt has to win SA and that's not going to happen, unless Yuna WD. Caroline and Alissa has to win SC, and beat both Rochett and Suzuki. That's a tough order, and maybe one of them will have an off day, but probably not both. Mind you, Rochett even with several mistakes can score 110+, which is almost as much as clean Caroline and Alissa.

If Rochett win, and Suzuki any where from 4th to 2nd. Both of them will be in.
Even if both Caroline and Alissa managed to squeeze in for silver and bronze, both will not be able to make it to GPF, as their combine placement with 4th place is lower than Ashley silver and bronze.

Alissa never skated a clean skate without a single <, and that will hurt her score. Carolinem, while she managed to fully rotate her jumps, they are often slap with poor exucution.
 

janetfan

Match Penalty
Joined
May 15, 2009
Well chances are that no American woman is going to win at Vancouver. IMO, I think the best thing would be to send two younger skaters who have competed this year and get them experience at the biggest competition. Many discussions are going on right now about who to send I bet. Of course I reserve the right to be wrong too :laugh:

Interesting stuff - but it should be considered that none of the ladies skating at US Natls this year will be on the 2014 Olympic Team. I like all of them in varying degrees - but we have a big federation. Chances are the potential team members for 2014 are a only 12 - 15 right now and are waiting to emerge.

For sure, one 2014 Olympian will come from the next gen and possibly more.
 
Joined
Aug 16, 2009
I don't have time to write a long post because I'm at work right now, but I just wanted to thank Mathman for the explanations of the Grand Prix ranking system as well as the way the USFSA determines Olympians. This is a huge help in demystifying the process.
 

i love to skate

Medalist
Joined
Dec 13, 2005
Interesting stuff - but it should be considered that none of the ladies skating at US Natls this year will be on the 2014 Olympic Team. I like all of them in varying degrees - but we have a big federation. Chances are the potential team members for 2014 are a only 12 - 15 right now and are waiting to emerge.

For sure, one 2014 Olympian will come from the next gen and possibly more.

Skating is changing though - it is no longer a sport dominated by 16 year olds. Mirai, Caroline, Ashley and Rachel will only be in their early twenties by 2014. Careers are not over when a person turns 18 anymore. I wouldn't be surprised if the American skaters that are around in 2014 were competing this year.
 

janetfan

Match Penalty
Joined
May 15, 2009
Skating is changing though - it is no longer a sport dominated by 16 year olds. Mirai, Caroline, Ashley and Rachel will only be in their early twenties by 2014. Careers are not over when a person turns 18 anymore. I wouldn't be surprised if the American skaters that are around in 2014 were competing this year.

ITA.
But - I was maybe hoping that the next gen of US Ladies will be better! :p

Maybe coaches are considering some of the problems our current group has and are making adjustments.

And we do have a couple of very good young'uns whose presence will be felt at next season's Natls.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
I was just wondering.. back in 2002 when Kwan qualified for the finals with one event, did others not competed in two events?

I mean even if the scores had been something like you mentioned(12 for first, 9 for second, 7 for third, 5 for fourth, 4 for fifth, 3 for sixth), even 2-4 or 2-5 would outrank Kwan(12) in total points earned. Maybe only few skaters got two events back in the days?..:think:

As I remember it, there were several fluky coincidences that allowed Michelle to squeak in as the sixth qualifier in the Grand Prix final that year.

Yoshie Onda had her best year ever, getting a first and a second. But then she came down with an injury and had to withdraw from the final

Ann Patrice McDonough won silver at Skate America and was scheduled to compete in Cup of Russia. But when she got as far as Paris they didn’t let her get on the plane to St. Petersburg because her visa was not in order. There was quite a bit of finger-pointing among the USFSA and Ann Patrice’s mother, her coach and her advisors as to who dropped the ball.

New Olympic champion Sarah Hughes withdrew from her firt event (Skate America) with an injury and did not compete again that year. Maria Butyrskaya and some other strong contenders retired or took a post-Olympic break.

Plus, back then it was permitted for a skater to compete in three events. Only two counted in terms of points for the grand Prix final, but if they placed well in their third event, this took some points off the table that other skaters might have earned. (The motivation for the skaters was that they could win prize money -- $30,000 for first place, etc. – even if it didn’t count towards making the GP final.) Elena Liashenko and Fumie Suguri both had three events, as I recall.

All of these factors took points off the table and allowed people to qualify with a lower number of points than usual. Plus, the tie-breaker was best placement, so Michelle had the first tie-breaker over anyone else who got the same number of points in two events as she got in one.

Because of all this confusion, the next year the ISU changed the rules. First tie-breaker was that two events were better than one, and no skater could appear in more than two events. Except for pairs. There weren’t enough good pairs teams to go around, so they still let pairs teams compete in three events. Zhang and Zhang did so in 2003-04, I believe.

All of this was before the ISU came out with rigid rules about which skaters would go where. Back in those days each event organizer pretty much invited whomever they wanted.

For Michelle personally, it gets even weirder. She had planned to take 2002 off (and maybe to retire for good), as she had taken 1998 off after the Nagano Olympics. For Skate America, Sarah Hughes was the big draw. The USFSA poured all their PR efforts into hyping Hughes. Then when she withdrew, they were up the creek. Yagudin and Sale and Pelletier and Berezhnaya and Sikharudlidze also withdrew after having been advertised.

So they begged Michelle to come back just for Skate America and save the day. She agreed, with the understanding that she would not have to do a second GP event or the final..As Michelle put it, “I felt like Michael Corleone in the Godfather. Just when I think I’m out, they pull me back in!” There were a lot of rumors flying about that the USFSA had made Michelle an “offer she couldn’t refuse.” (A financial offer that is – I don’t mean that they put a horse’s head in her bed. :) )

Anyway, it worked. Michelle skated and won, Skate America set the all time and still standing attendance record, and Michelle was so encouraged that she decided to go to Nationals after all…and then Worlds in Washington D.C.…and the rest is history. :laugh: That is why Michelle’s Aranjuez program (= Tosca = Bolero) was so spare. She hadn’t really expected to perform it except at cheesefests. (The three U.S. cheesefests back then paid $50,000 apiece to the winner, which was always Michelle, except one time they gave it to good soldier Irina. :clap: )
 
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PolymerBob

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 17, 2007
Interesting stuff - but it should be considered that none of the ladies skating at US Natls this year will be on the 2014 Olympic Team. I like all of them in varying degrees - but we have a big federation. Chances are the potential team members for 2014 are a only 12 - 15 right now and are waiting to emerge.

For sure, one 2014 Olympian will come from the next gen and possibly more.

I don't think so. Rachael will be 21 in 2014; Caroline and Mirai will be 20; Ashley will be 22. Yes, there will be a new crop of wondergirls. And these wondergirls will tear up the junior circuit, make us think they are the next big thing, then struggle when puberty hits.

I think our current group of ladies will only improve after these Olympics. They will keep getting better until the next Olympics roll around.
 
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