It may be true that jumps dictate level in roller skating, but it is not true on ice.
Originally Posted by bondgirl
Skating skills determine level, especially within the US.
There's a minimum level of jumping skill that's required to pass the freestyle US freestyle tests, but it's pretty low compared to what's normal for that level.
There's a typical level of jump content that's allowed and expected at a given level. For standard-track intermediate and up, that's pretty much determined by the short program requirements.
And then for the really competitive events there's a much higher level of all skills including jumps needed to succeed at that level.
If I see a skater I don't know on a freestyle session, I can usually make a pretty good guess what level s/he competes at based on the basic skating. When I see the jumps, that might alter my guess a little bit, based more on the quality than on exactly which jumps are or aren't being practiced. If I see a clean double axel, that still doesn't change my mind, because we see those from skaters at juvenile through senior level. We also see cheated double axels at all those levels.
Skaters also self-select according to age to some degree, to stay with their general age group even if their skills including jumps lag a bit behind the norm at that level, or to stay back at a level where they can be nationally competitive if they have the jumps at young ages but don't have the physical power to keep up with older, bigger skaters.
So there is a huge range of ability at the intermediate level, for example. That includes skaters who barely passed the the intermediate MITF and those who had already passed senior MITF with ease. It also includes skaters who still struggle with the easier doubles, and skaters who are getting pretty competent with the easier triples. And there isn't always a direct correlation between
Things are a lot more complicated with adults because there are so many other variables involved. For most adult skaters jump difficulty is not the strong point, and the levels have been defined in ways that make sense for most of those skaters.
Yes, there are exceptions. But if you want to join in the process, you need to become a skater with good jumps and care about the skating. That's the name of the sport. There is no sport on ice for jumpers who don't skate.
Yes, and that is unfortunate. I don't have the money or connections to start such a sport, or I would...
Yes, I understand there is no DIRECT corelation between particular jumps and level, however.....when I referred to levels I was implying what would be "competitive" at that particular level at Standard Nationals. (For example, juvenilles generally do all doubles, double combos, maybe a 2axel. Yes, there are exceptions. Possible triple attempt or even clean triple.....But generally you won't see a juvenille with a full set of triples up to and including lutz. Also, at national level, generally won't see a juvenille with exceptional edges and only single jumps.) So, as you know, there is a very general corelation between the two.
Juvenile is capped at 2 Axel no triples allowed. Most intermediate need 2A and 3S or 3T with a 3-2 combo to do well. Jr men @ mids, 3rd place skater landed 3A was last years Nov champ, 3-3 combo is becoming the norm at Jr, these skaters will have hips that are all metal/procelain by 40... Bonaly, was at my surgeon's office for a labral tear 2 years ago, that's what jumping gets, Kwan and Lipinski as well. Everyone might want to look into investing in companies that make metal joints, they are going to be popular. Same surgeon in conjunction with the Cleveland clinic gave a talk at last years US nats about hip dysplasia, not fun to be crippled by jumps at 20.
I see a lot of skaters at the doctor's office at my annual visit.
These had better be plural, collective "you's" and not you accusing me, singularly, of something. Because, how dare you?
Originally Posted by bondgirl
As coskater said, we decide the rules as a committee, to promote the general welfare of adult skating. Then anything we come up with still has to be approved by the board of directors of US Figure Skating, and then approved by the entire general council of delegates, who represent clubs around the country. It's the same for all of figure skating, not just adult. Of course adult skating didn't have a test structure when it started; that's like expecting a person to walk and talk the second he or she is born. The program had to be created based on the needs of its constituents -- the needs of the many, not the few -- the same way the program for the standard-track was created years and years ago. Actually, the same way laws in our country are written -- for the many, not the few.
I could go line by line on the rest of your post, but it would be a waste of time because you clearly only hear what you want to hear. You repeat the same stuff in every post -- mostly accusing other people of being nasty and not looking in a mirror at your own actions. I've got news for you: Just because you say you're approaching a subject objectively does not make it so.
Last edited by daisies; 11-26-2009 at 07:16 PM.
It should be added that the committee changes every year people come and people go, it is not the same small group of people every year, this is the same for all committees. We work in cooperation for the better of the sport as a whole. If we did everything for the few we would have no events and just give out a gold medal to single people as the events would be composed of just one person because, they would all say, I can't do this, I can't do, that, I'm to tall, I'm to old, I'm to young, I started at 40, I started at 50, I can't do moves. This is what we strive to avoid, because we are adults, these are the rules and unlike roller skating we have them and they are for the whole, they level the playing field, and they benefit the group.
You say the same thing again and again, and somehow my dispersal of factual information is viewed by you as an attack because it doesn't agree with you. Pandora/bondgirl/bondmovies you are not objective, you have a none to subtle agenda, the people who disagree with you are members of the sport? We participate, you don't, and that is your loss alone, you won't ever be able to particpate because you think the rules don't apply to you. They do.
That is your loss. Goodbye, goodluck.
daisies, Of course I ment the pural, collective "you."
bondgirl, you'd get a lot different tone/response if you were coming here with a background of having truly worked at moves/testing for, say, 2 years, and having failed to pass a single test. That would indicate that you truly tried, and truly could not do the requirements.
However, it's obvious that would not be the case. It's obvious to everyone that you could pass the moves tests, and frankly you could pass them with a whole lot less effort than many adult skaters. Your issue is that you don't want to do the tests, because you personally don't see the value/need/point of doing them. You yourself have basically said, "I can't go out right now and with absolutely no training/practice, pass junior moves. Therefore, I don't want to try, and instead I think they should change the competition requirement rules for me." That's a very different circumstance, and that's mainly what people are reacting to.
Hard work is what's respected in this sport, and wanting to circumvent it is NOT respected---and viola, here we are.
Yes, some of the moves are challenging. So are the jumps--it's just that you happen to like the challenge of jumping, and not of footwork. But that is your personal issue, not a flaw in the structure of the sport.
Could not have said it better. Honestly, I can understand and sympathize with Bondgirl's desire to just jump and not have to pass all of these tests before being allowed to compete. We each have something that makes this system challenging for us, and that challenge is different for each person. What I--and others on these boards--are reacting to so negatively is this attitude that the system should be changed for ONE PERSON (since there doesn't seem to be anyone else interested in making this major rule change). From time to time, someone will have an idea and bounce it off of people on these discussion boards, but if that person finds that others don't share that interest or point of view, he/she will drop it. It isn't personal!
Originally Posted by backspin
Another reason this one person campaign is getting a negative response is that there are so many adult skaters out there who CAN'T pass all of the tests due to some physical limitation that is beyond their control. In light of that fact, it's pretty hard to sympathize with someone who COULD pass the tests with a reasonable amount of effort but just doesn't want to put in that effort. That's a slap in the face to those who are willing to do the work but can't.
Last edited by vlaurend; 11-28-2009 at 11:16 PM.
Honestly, any performance in front of a crowd will help with nerves. You will always be nervous, that part never goes away, but the key is to learn to "manage" the nerves under pressure. That is accomplished by doing as many performances (competitions, tests, whatever) as possible.
Originally Posted by bondgirl
I once heard a skater say that they got nervous before every competition because it *mattered* & was important to them. I like this concept & it has been true for me in life as well as in skating.
A long time ago, I did 13 USFSA competitions + passed 4 tests in one year (2 FS, 1 FM, 1 Dance level). It was a very busy year & because I did this volume of performances, I even got an award from my skating club for being the most active competitor/tester. The most important lesson I learned that year was how to manage my nerves under pressure much better and it really worked.
Yeah, it's a fine line we ride as performers (speaking as a professional musician here). You need to "care" so that there is emotion and feeling in your performance, but you also have to stay detached enough to be able to execute the technique properly. The secret is practice. Technique has to be absolutely secure so that you can express emotion without getting too carried away by it. We have a saying: "Amateurs practice until they get it right; professionals practice until they don't get it wrong." In music, that means hours in the practice room drilling scales, arpeggios, and exercises as well as practicing the pieces you intend to perform. On ice, that means drilling edges and turns as well as practicing "tricks" and programs. When the technique is solid, the rest can follow, and one isn't as likely to fall victim to stage fright. (I do a pretty good job with this on the concert stage. Center ice, not so much...)
Thanks! It's a good plan you have there. Any performance helps: test, competition, whatever. And you will notice that this ability to manage nerves helps you in everyday life as well. I am not nearly as "shy" about getting up in front of people to say stuff in meetings, talk to a high level Director, or address a group of people at work. I swear everything I ever learned about life came from skating & skating related activities.
Originally Posted by bondgirl
These days, I'm not competing/testing since I am not training for skating anymore. But again, my ability to get up there in front of people helps me in my current pursuit: modeling. I was in a runway show last month, the biggest one I have ever done and it was the first thing I was doing for my agency. I drew upon my skating performance knowledge, managed the nerves, and pulled it off quite nicely, helping other new models in the process. This is great knowledge to have. Go for it!